Welcome to the FlipNerd.com Expert Interview Show Top 10 series, where we share our top 10 shows from 2017. In this episode, Tom Cafarella shares some incredible knowledge on how to maximize your lead generation efforts. In today’s market, every penny and every ounce of your effort matters, and Tom’s willingness to share these powerful lessons helped this show land in our FlipNerd Top 10 shows list! Let’s join the show.
Mike: This is the flipnerd.com Expert Real Estate Investing Show, the show for real estate investors whether you’re veteran or brand new, I’m your host Mike Hambright and each week I bring you a new expert guest that will share their knowledge and lessons with you. If you’re excited about real estate investing, believe in personal responsibility, and taking control of your life and financial destiny, you’re in the right place.
This is episode number 358 and my guest for today’s show is Tom Cafarella, a Boston-based real estate investor. Today we talk about generating motivated seller leads, we talk about what’s working and we talk about what’s not. More than ever it’s critical that your adverting dollars are working for you every single day as every penny counts.
Today we talk about direct mail, online advertising and something that’s becoming more and more popular, actually cold calling seller prospects to see if they’re interested in selling their house. Whether you’re a brand new or a veteran, I promise you’re going to learn a lot from today’s show. So let’s go ahead and get started. Please help me welcome Tom Cafarella to the show. Tom, welcome to the show.
Tom: Thank you for having me on.
Mike: Yeah, I’m excited to talk about this and we talk about lead generation all the time but not always on the show. And I think you and I were talking before the show, we both know that it’s a different world now than it was 5, 6 years ago from a lead generation standpoint. I mean, you’d agree with that, right?
Tom: Absolutely. I was really lucky. I got started in the business about 10 years ago, literally probably the day the market started crashing. So when I first started, I thought real estate investing was you go on the MLS, you find a HUD owned property or a bank owned property, you put it under contract, you put some money into it and you make some money. And I did that for a while.
I did that for 5 or 6 years until somewhere around 2012, the market completely shifted. And it shifted overnight where there were 50 homes that were being auctioned or HUD properties like in the specific city I was doing a lot of business in. Overnight that went in half. And I went through a period where pretty much every deal I did, either lost money or I barely made anything, until I figured out that I needed to make a change. And that’s when I started marketing to sellers directly and my business completely changed once I figured that out.
Mike: Yeah. And so I have a lot of friends that were . . . now you’re in Boston and I am in Dallas, so REOs were never big here. They just were never a big thing, at least for me. I mean I bought like three or four HUD houses out of hundreds of properties three or four HUD properties and they were kind of flukes. They weren’t my best deals, like we always have been going direct to seller.
But I have friends that were buying at auction, like heavy, heavy at auction, REOs, lots of things. And for those people that never went direct to seller which has its challenges we’re going to talk about today, but you are a one-legged stool in a lot of regards and that went away for everybody at some point, no matter what your medicine was there, that went away at some point and people had to figure out a new way to operate.
Tom: Yeah, and at that point, my business got completely taken away from me. So I went from making really good money every single year to not knowing if I was going to be able to survive in that particular market.
Mike: Yeah, yeah. Well the thing about, once you figure how to go direct to seller which we’re going to talk a lot about today, we buy houses in distress, there is always people that defer maintenance on their house for decades and then eventually somebody has to deal with that and a lot of times the person that lived there for decades didn’t deal with it. So why would they deal with it all of a sudden after 30 or 40 years, right?
Those are likely investor type sales and there is always death, divorce, inheritance, lots of things that happen in people’s lives that are going to happen in all of our lives eventually. It’s just a matter of how our assets will be taken care of at that point. Will the family just say, I’m knocking on wood here, I don’t want anything to happen to my parents, but if something were to happen to my parents, I grew up in Illinois, I’m not going to go up there and fool with that. I just want it to go away tomorrow. So we provide a service for that, right?
Tom: Absolutely. And there are many other reasons, I mean you hit on the most common ones. But there are so many different reasons why it might make sense for a particular seller to sell to an investor and until you actually start marketing directly to motivated sellers, you don’t realize it.
Now, the majority of sellers, over 90% of sellers are always going to sell traditionally. They’re going to get their house ready for sale, they’re going to list it with a real estate agent, they’re going to want top dollar for their home, and they’re going to be willing to go through the hassles and headaches that a company having a property listed.
But that 10% of the population doesn’t want to deal with all that. They want to sell directly to an investor and they want to be done 30-45 days later without any hassles or contingencies. And those are the people that we serve. And so it’s the right option for those particular, that segment of the population.
Mike: Right, right, yeah. Well, before we kind of get any further, tell us a little bit more. You talked about how you changed gears and you kind of came into the understanding of the importance of generating leads yourself for motivated sellers. But give us a little bit more of an introduction to how you got started in the business and how you evolved.
Tom: Yes, so I got started in the business like I said, about 10 years ago and I was a CPA. So I had a full-time corporate job which I absolutely hated. So I would go to work every single day, I read about real estate investing, I daydreamed about doing fix and flips and buying holds and wholesaling.
And I got my real estate brokerage license. It wasn’t actually until I had a seller that did not want to list their home, but actually wanted to sell directly to an investor that I figured out that this subsegment of the market existed. And that was actually my first deal that I ever did. And I wholesaled that deal, did really well on it, and there was no looking back after that.
Mike: Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting about all real estate investors, a big part of success is just the confidence, right? And after you see it happen once, then you’re like, there is something in the back of your head that always wonders, is this really real. But once you see it happen, it’s like blood in the water and you hear shark. I’m all in now, right?
Tom: Even if you see everybody else doing it and even if you see a friend of yours that says they made a lot of money, it’s always in the back of your head, you’re like “Can I really do this? Does this really happen?” And most of the people that I talk with that are looking to get into this, they’re always like “Why would somebody take less than fair market value for their home?”
And I can list all the reasons but until you actually see it. It’s hard to believe that somebody . . . because we look at it from our perspective. Would we take a discount on our home? I probably wouldn’t. But again, there is that segment of the population that would and those are the people that it makes sense for us to serve and that’s how we make our living.
Mike: Yeah. I think a lot . . . people don’t really understand that there are definitely people that are not motivated by money or it’s not the primary motivator. Some people just want the pain to go. There could be pain associated . . . like a family member could have died and the house reminds them of them, you could’ve been abused as a child and that’s where your dad lived. Whatever, there are lots of reasons. I mean, there are a million reasons but sometimes people just want that problem to go away as fast as possible and it has nothing to do with money.
And I think until you kind of . . . until you have people explain their situation to you and tell you their story and you’re like “I understand.” Until you’ve experienced that yourself, people just don’t get it usually.
Tom: I have even had people where they just don’t want their neighbors to know they’re selling their house. As simple as that. And they don’t want people going through their house. They don’t want to have open houses. They don’t want the public to know that they’re selling and they’re willing to sell to an investor because of that.
So it doesn’t always even have to this extreme situation. It can be something simple that they just want a fast and easy sell and that’s all they need and that’s all we need and we get the deal done.
Mike: Awesome. So let’s talk a little bit about how things evolved from, let’s just go back even five years like 2011-2012, up until today. Because there has been a big shift in the market across the country. Every market is a little bit different but talk about, I guess the shift that occurred and maybe a little bit about the shift that occurred with you, like some of the things you realized and what forced you to change.
Tom: So what happened was is that when there became less distressed inventory on the market, they were the same amount of investors who wanted to flip homes. So simple supply and demand, the prices started getting pushed up and even as the economy started doing better, labor costs started to go up. So where we could buy a property directly on the MLS or at an auction and make money, we couldn’t anymore. And so again, my back was against the wall.
I needed to figure out a way for this to work. I didn’t want to go back to corporate America which was my biggest kind of fear and what motivated me. So we literally tested out pretty much every marketing method that you can think of. So if you go on BiggerPockets and you search motivated seller marketing methods, you’ll find 40, 50, 60 things. We were lucky because we had enough money to spend to test each and every one of them out. And then all we did was the ones that worked, we did more of and the things that didn’t work we did less of.
So we went through about a 6-month to a year phase where we tried a lot of things that didn’t work. And the thing about marketing to motivated sellers is that it can even be specific to your geographic location. Certain things can work in one market and they might not work in another. For example, in my market in the Boston market, if you put up a bandit sign, it’s going to get ripped down within an hour. So it doesn’t work in Boston. But I talk to people all over the country in different markets and in some markets you can put a bandit sign up and it stays up for a year.
So even within a specific geographic market, certain things might work better than others. But in general, there is only a few things that work really well across all markets.
Mike: Yeah. So what are some of the things you tried there that, other than maybe bandit signs, that just didn’t work for you? You sounds like you tried a lot, but try the ones that you kind of knew in your mind this is going to work and then just didn’t work.
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This is going to work and then it didn’t work.
Tom: So the bandit signs was a big one because I feel like every single course I ever took to learn about real estate investing, taught about how great bandit signs were. So we developed a really good system where we had multiple people putting them up, myself included, we would get up at 4:00 in the morning, get them all out. And again they were just getting ripped down and ripped down and ripped down. And not that we didn’t get any leads from it, but when you actually calculate out the cost per lead, it was extremely high. So our cost per lead on the bandit signs ended up being about $1,000 per lead, which you really just can’t make money on. So that was one of the things that didn’t really work well.
The other things that we tried that don’t work super well is, I’m pretty anti-driving for dollars. So I did a lot of driving for dollars and what I found after doing it a lot is that I’ve never seen much of a correlation between somebody who has a property that’s in beat up condition versus somebody that actually wants to sell to an investor. And driving for dollars takes up so much time.
You’re basically doing all this research to get somebody who you then can contact when you can just start out by contacting them. And so I think in the beginning now is a mistake I made a lot of where it was like I was going to cold call somebody, I spent an hour of research before I identified who I was going to call. Whereas today I’m broadcasting out thousands and thousands of calls and yes, some of those people aren’t going to want to sell, but I don’t care. I want to get out as many calls as I can instead of doing the research up front.
Mike: Right, right. And there is different approaches to driving for dollars, I know having some friends in Boston as well. I think somebody said before that door knocking would be like a huge no-no in Boston compared to maybe other markets. I mean people are . . . sometimes people tolerate things different in different markets.
I’d say in the south people are little more to like knock on the door, how are you doing, come in, and have some ice tea and talk to me. I don’t even know what you want. And then as you could imagine in the northeast people are little bit more like short. Like “What do you want?” Maybe, I don’t know, I am making this up, but probably less . . .
Tom: You’re right. But door knocking works. The problem with door knocking is that most people won’t do it. So it’s one of those marketing methods where like the only time I had been successful with it is when I was the person who door knocked. And me as the business owner I don’t really have time to door knock.
So I actually went through a phase where I hired a bunch of people to actually do the door knocking for me and I gave them a route and I gave them a map and we had a tracking system to see if they actually knocked on the door, like I would have them take a picture of something they would believe behind. But the issue is that in the Boston market, and this is probably true everywhere, but in the Boston market specifically when the snowstorms start coming, people don’t want to be outside walking around anymore.
So it became a job, the door knocking itself, for it to be profitable for me, I couldn’t pay a lot per hour. But people weren’t willing to do the work for that low of a cost. So again, door knocking definitely works but it’s not something that I really suggest for most people to do because it’s a hard thing to kind of expand out on a bigger level.
Mike: Right. So what are you doing now, Tom, that does work? What are some of the things that you’re doing that you want to share today that are working for you?
Tom: So the three things that work really well that I think work across all markets and then anyone could implement very easily, would be cold calling, internet marketing, and mailing. With mailing being my least favorite of the three as of today because mailing is the most common and it’s the lazy person’s way of marketing, so it’s the most saturated.
Mike: Yeah. We have this discussion all time with people that I coach and mentor, is that even when you’re mailing the more broad or cheap, because sometimes people want cheap and easy when you start in real estate investing, so people say well just go after the absentee owners with high equity. It’s like, okay. Well that’s a huge list but those lists may cost you 3 to 5, may be 7 to 10 cents depending on where you are buying it from. But if you get some specialty list, those might be 40-50 cents a record.
So I think basically the more expensive the list is to get to or the harder it is to get to, the less competition you have because the competition and the gurus out there and everything, they’re teaching the cheap stuff, like “Oh just go get the 2 cent a record list.” It’s like “Yeah, but that’s just crap.” But yeah, there is no doubt that the stuff that’s harder to do and the stuff that’s more expensive to do, you tend to do better over time because you got less competition there.
Tom: Exactly. So what we actually do is the most expensive of all which is build our own database. So we have certain variables that . . . we have a property profile that we like. So we know what types of properties will make us the most money. And we have the seller profile that we like.
So just to give you an example on the seller profile. We know that on average most sellers are going to be over the age of 50 that sell to an investor. Now that doesn’t mean that someone under the age of 50 can’t sell to an investor, but again, when we’re targeting we want to make sure that we’re marketing to the people that are most likely to sell to us. And we want to market to the people, to the homes that we want to buy.
So if you target for example, just an absentee owner list, well, you’re going to be mailing or calling or putting ads up in front of people whose houses you probably don’t even want to buy. So we go the reverse way. We say what houses do we want to buy, what’s the demographic information of the people that are going to sell to us and let’s market to those people over and over and over again until they either sell to us or they sell to somebody else. And that’s the method that we use. It’s the most expensive but it’s the biggest ROI overall.
Mike: Right, right. From a criteria, not that you have to give us your detailed criteria, but over the age of 50 you’re looking for houses that are clearly not new. You’re looking for houses that are older that had a chance to become distressed, I assume.
Tom: Exactly. So in Boston, the average property was built between 1880 and 1920 which is older than . . . Boston is an old town. So anything built after 1960 is kind of new for Boston. So we are not marketing to any houses that are built after 1960. So we’re looking at things like assess values too. Because I like to be in the median to lower end of every market because I feel that’s the most amount of buyers.
And so for each kind of filter that we put on, it takes out a certain amount of the population. And then we have a database in the Boston market of essentially every house that we want to buy. And those are the people that we’re continuing to market to, like I said. They’re either going to sell to us at some point or they’re going to sell to somebody else, but we’re going to be front of them when they are going to make that decision.
Mike: Yeah, yeah. That’s awesome. So let’s dive into . . . so we kind of went over the criteria, I guess these are criteria used for mailing, but let’s start with what you said your favorite was which is something that’s becoming more and more popular these days, we hear more people talk about it, is cold calling. Actually cold calling prospective sellers, really they’re home owners that you’re trying to find out would they be interested in selling, right? So share some more about that.
Tom: So it’s the same database. So when I say that we’re reaching out to them and we’re in front of them forever, we’re in front of them via calling, via mailing, and on the internet, on Facebook and Google until they end up selling to us or selling to somebody else. So when we call, the person has also received letters from us, the person is also seeing us on Facebook and also maybe seen us on Google if they’re searching for the right key terms. So we’re calling to same people.
But the important thing about . . . there are a couple of important things when it comes to calling. The first is essentially how you kind of go up the ladder which meaning like you’re having . . . the person that you’re paying the least amount of money doing the lowest level priority task and then as you need more skills, you’re going up the ladder. So for example, the people that are doing my initial calling, they’re the lowest dollar per hour. And then all their job is at the very beginning stages of us cold calling is to call as many people as possible and just to identify if the person might consider an offer.
Once they say yes I might consider an offer, then it goes up the ladder to somebody else who has more skills. And so that person is an inside sales agent for me that can have a more in-depth conversation on what we do, what we offer, what types of houses we like to buy, how it might be beneficial to them. And then once the inside sales agent has that conversation and the seller is willing is meet with us, now it’s going to an acquisition specialist on my team who can go out there and meet them and actually get the deal closed.
Mike: Okay. So from that initial call, are they mentioning in any way that you’re a discount buyer or they’re just seeing if they’re interested in selling at all?
Tom: They’re just interested in selling and the reason for that is because I have a 150 person real estate brokerage, so a lot of the people that are acquisition specialists on my team are also agents.
Mike: I see.
Tom: And so we can help to sell . . . if they want to sell, we can help them. And when we go out there we’re going to usually help them make the determination of whether or not it makes sense to sell to an investor or whether it makes sense to sell traditionally.
And for most people, it makes sense to sell traditionally and that’s okay. We want to do what’s in the best interest of that particular seller. We help them kind of determine what that is and then hopefully if we do a good job of providing value, they’ll end up working with us.
Mike: That’s awesome. So can you maybe share a little bit about how you build your database? So you start with addresses, I guess, some criteria, so you’re pulling this from public records probably initially and then you have to append stuff to it? Okay.
Tom: Correct. Exactly. So there is a lot of appending. So we start out with, we go into our MLS database, the public record, and then we export the initial set of records, and then we just keep on appending to that . . . we filter. There is some stuff that you can filter in the MLS and there is some stuff you can’t. So we filter as much as we can right out of the gate in the MLS, but then we add other filters to it which we do outside of the MLS. And then when you’re talking about appending data, like we’re appending email records, cell phone records, and any other data that we need to know about the person, like date of birth and anything like that.
Mike: Yeah. That’s interesting. So that’s how you . . . let’s kind of get into the next set, which is online advertising and I know before this, you said you liked Facebook. So the question I always have with Facebook because we do a lot of marketing for FlipNerd and for our business and stuff, we don’t advertise for sellers right now on Facebook other than retargeting, which is kind of a logical step, “Hey they visited my site. They’ve expressed some interest, so we’re retargeting them.”
The challenge I would say typically on Facebook is that, unlike Google where somebody is searching for keywords, they’re looking for you maybe, but on Facebook it’s hard to know that “Hey, my mom just died last week,” by the way, mom if you’re watching this, I’m not talking about you. Basically, “Mom just died last week and Dad’s in a nursing home and I’m motivated.” That stuff doesn’t come up on Facebook but I know that you can target people based on IP address, based on their address. Are you using that information to upload and target IPs based on the houses that are in your database that you’ve already decided you want to buy?
Tom: No, we’re not. I know exactly what you’re saying and I don’t even think what you’re talking about doing would be possible. So on Facebook, the negative of Facebook is that you’re basically interrupting someone doing something else. So with Google the benefit is, they go on Google, they type “sell my house fast, Boston,” they’re looking for you. So that is a higher quality, more expensive lead. On Facebook they’re basically looking to see pictures of their friends and their family and you’re throwing up an ad in front of them that’s saying, “Hey, you want to sell your house fast in 7 days? Click here.”
But even though the leads are not quite as high quality, you’re going to get a lot more for your dollar. So when we look at leads in general, we look at the cost per acquisition. So I don’t care really about the cost per lead because I can get $10 home valuation leads, but they’re all garbage. So I need thousands and thousands of home valuation leads in order to buy a house.
And then on Google when somebody goes in and they say, “Sell my house fast or sell my house fast for cash,” those leads are super expensive but they’re really good leads. So we look and say “Okay, how many Facebook leads does it take to get a deal and am I profitable on that spend?”
So if I’m spending $5,000 or $6,000 or $7,000 or $8,000 on Facebook ads, what’s my ROI and as long as my ROI is positive and it’s comparable to my other lead sources, then we’re going to go after it. So on Facebook you are able to filter. So Facebook knows everything about you. How old you are, they know your marital status, they know your job, they know what you like, they know what you don’t like.
So the cool thing about Facebook is if you’re a real estate investor, you’re not seeing my ad. If you’re a real estate agent, you’re not seeing my ad. If you’re not a home owner, you’re not seeing my ad. So Facebook does have a lot of information about people where you can get pretty targeted. Now, you are going to reach some people on Facebook that maybe you don’t want to buy their house, but again the cost per lead is lower. So it’s a good value.
Mike: Sure, sure. I see, I see. Awesome. So you’re not targeting . . . because you can also upload email addresses and target people that way and you said you try to append email addresses. So there are some other . . . which are not perfect, I mean, but I think, who knows where Facebook will be even two years from now or what other social network will pop up.
Tom: I saw some funny marketing cartoon where . . . I’m not going to do a good idea of explaining it, but it’s getting to the point where all the ads that we see on a day-to-day basis now are so targeted specifically to us because these companies know so much about us now. So in the future, we’re going to see ads that are literally talking specifically to us. Like “Hey, Tom in Boston,” and it’s getting to that point where everything that we see now is so targeted. And it’s nice from an advertiser’s perspective because you can put the right ad in front of the right person.
Going back 10 years, if you wanted to do a TV ad, you’re putting a message out in front of a bunch of people who you know they have no interest in your product or service, but you still have to pay to reach all those people. Where now, you can get super targeted and you can only show the ad to the people who are your most motivated clientele and only pay to show it in front of those people.
Mike: Right, right. So with online . . . so you’re primarily doing, I guess you’re doing both Google, you put AdWords and Facebook advertisements, is that primarily what you’re doing?
Tom: Yeah, and some SEO but I always hesitate to say too much about SEO because most people think when they get a website and start generating SEO leads in a month or two months and the reality is it just takes a long time. And even once the SEO starts working, someone can bump you like a position or two down and you don’t have all that much control over it.
So we do get a bunch of SEO leads but when someone is first starting out, I’m like don’t even think about SEO because you’re maybe a year away from generating your first lead.
Mike: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then by the way, even if you become proficient at SEO, Google could change their algorithm and you just . . .
Tom: That’s what I’m saying, you have no control.
Mike: Next week everything goes away. There is one thing for certain, is there will always be a way to spend advertising dollars to advertise and you will always have more control over what that gets you ultimately. So I guess even nobody likes to pay for advertising. It’s like at least it’s predictable, not completely predictable but more predictable.
Tom: But I like to spend money on marketing because at the end of the day it’s the easiest way to leverage yourself. So when you try to do stuff to generate leads, spending your own time, I mean your time is the only resource that you don’t get back. So as long as you’re getting . . . if I’m spending marketing money and I’m giving you $1 and you’re giving me $2 back, I’m going to keep spending that dollar until I can’t get that $2 back anymore.
Mike: Yeah. We’re kind of coming up at the end of our show here. What advice do you give to people that are looking to get started or that are already started in real estate investing but they haven’t really cracked the code on advertising? Where do they start? Because I know we talked about direct mail is where most people start, the cold calling thing is not complicated, but it’s a process that you have to learn, and then direct mail is becoming easier than it has been in the past, but there is still a learning curve there as well. Where would you suggest people start?
Tom: If you don’t have any money, I would suggest starting with cold calling because you can do that for almost nothing. The Mojo dialer which is a three-line dialer is 150 bucks a month. If you’re going to pay, I would start with either Facebook or Google and start with a marketing budget that you can afford and then scale up from there.
But I would always recommend if you’re an investor, get your real estate license because most of the people that say that they’re motivated to sell are still going to sell traditionally. So why not capitalize on that lead regardless of how they’re going to sell. So I always recommend to get your real estate license as soon as you can in the beginning and you’ll get a bigger ROI on everything that you do in real estate.
Mike: Yeah, yeah, awesome. And Tom, if folks want to learn more about you, about some of the stuff you’re working on, where would they go to find you?
Tom: The best way is just to go to my website directly which is www.realestateinvestingiseasy.com. Again, that’s www.realestateinvestingiseasy.com, and that actually has my best training video which kind of goes over in more detail some of the stuff that we’ve talked about today.
Mike: Okay, awesome. We will have a link down below the video for anybody that’s interested and thanks for spending the time with us today.
Tom: Yeah, it was good.
Mike: Good stuff. I think the important thing is if you’re listening to this and if you got overwhelmed, the intent is not to overwhelm you, but the key really, is to get started. So you don’t have to start with all these things and like Tom said if you don’t have a lot of money, you can start with cold calling and just dialing people. You can start with direct mail with a relatively low budget. And you can start online. I mean, online is easier to do. I’m not a big advocate of people that have no knowledge there going to start to figure that out themselves. But there are some easy ways to kind of get started on a low budget online as well. Awesome.
Well, everybody thanks for joining us today. This is episode number 358 and we’re going to keep our episodes rolling out here. By the way, if you haven’t listened to our other podcast REI Classroom, I think over 700 episodes of that show, so we’ve got over a thousand episodes of different shows already for you on flipnerd.com or in the iTunes store. Everybody, thanks for joining us and we will see you again next week. Take care.
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