In today’s FlipNerd.com interview, Andrew Massaro shares with us an overview of wholesaling, and talk about the importance of mentally conditing yourself to get and stay successful. At the end of the day, wholesaling is a game, and you need to be prepared to play the game as best you can. Check out this show!
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Hey it’s Mike Hambright with FlipNerd.com. Welcome back for another exciting VIP interview, where I interview successful real estate investing experts and entrepreneurs in our industry to help you learn and grow. Today I’m joined by Andrew Massaro, a Florida based real estate wholesaler that also coaches others on how to be successful in wholesaling.
Andrew has a ton of experience in wholesaling. Today we’re specifically going to focus on a few different topics from kind of a wholesaling overview for anybody that’s new or that wants to learn about what wholesaling is. We’re going to talk a little bit about generating leads and some of the things that Andrew does in his business. And another important topic we’re going to talk about is mental conditioning to make sure you stay focused. This is a roller coaster business emotionally or can be. So it’s important that you stay strong. Before we get started though, let’s take a moment to recognize our future sponsors.
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Now, let’s start today’s show.
Hey Andrew, welcome to the show.
Andrew: Hey thanks Mike. Glad to be here.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. So we talked a little bit beforehand. I know you got a lot of great experience in some . . . it’s going to be a good show with learning some lessons. And it’s funny, there’s a lot of people as you know, there’s a lot of people that are newer to real estate investing that have been lead to believe one way or another that it could be an easy business, but it’s not easy. It’s not easy.
Andrew: Yeah, definitely not easy. If it were, everybody would be out there flipping houses making a million dollars a year.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. So I know we’re going to talk about a number of things, but I’m excited to get to that last piece. We’re going to talk about the mental conditioning because this business can . . . it’s an emotional and financial roller coaster. If you’re not prepared to weather those storms then you’re going to have a short lived life as a real estate investor. Right?
Andrew: Right. Absolutely. You got it. There will be tough times. No doubt about it. It comes with the territory. You’re going to be hung up on. You’re going to be cussed out. You’re going to have doors slammed in your face. You’re going to have people threaten to sue you. You’re going to have times where you don’t have any leads coming in and you’re going to start freaking out. All of these things are pretty much par for the course. You just have to be prepared to handle them.
Mike: Yeah. Fight through it.
Andrew: [inaudible 00:04:21] determined. You got to push through it.
Mike: Yeah, you do here . . . all sales is like that to some extent, but this is probably an extreme case to where certainly the vast majority of leads of people you talk to, you’re never going to buy their house. So you hear no a lot.
Andrew: Yeah, no doubt about it. And most of the people that, most of the offers you make, are just going to be flat out rejected right off the bat. Because they’re expecting A and you’re offering Z.
Andrew: I mean you’re way apart and I’ve had . . . I can’t remember how many times I’ve been cussed out. I’ve had someone threaten to fight me before just off a postcard. I sent them a postcard wanting to buy their house and they were so offended that the guy called me up and wanted to meet me in the parking lot of a local supermarket and have a fist fight.
Andrew: Those days make me laugh now, but there’s going to be some tough times. You have to be prepared every single day.
Mike: There’s an interesting. One thing, I say this all the time with, once you’re a real estate investor, like you’ve done a lot of deals, you’re going to be the life of the party at cocktail receptions for the rest of your life because you’ll have some crazy stories. Well hey, before we get into some of the topics today, for those that don’t know you or don’t know you well enough yet, why don’t you tell us your background of how you got to start in real estate investing and how you got to where you are today.
Andrew: Yeah, no problem. I was working a corporate job, corporate sales in marketing for a local radio station back in ’05 and we were going through the real estate boom. We didn’t know it at that time but it was at the tail end of it. But everybody was making money, especially here in my market in Tampa. Everybody was making money, hand over fist, even if you weren’t in real estate.
I mean, you were finding a way through interest only loans. Speculation was ramping. All this stuff. So I wanted to get in on it. I was miserable with my job. I was sitting in a cubicle, I was making about 30 grand a year. Going through all the office politics and back stabbing co-workers and bad management. All this different stuff, taxes, and health insurance dipping into my check. I was miserable. I was flat out miserable.
Andrew: And so I got a hold of my buddy. I’m childhood friends with a guy named Preston Neely, who is pretty famous in investing circles and he was wholesaling houses. I didn’t even know the term wholesale. I just knew he was in real estate making a lot of money. I went to lunch with him and I asked him what he was doing. That’s when I got introduced to the term wholesaling. I asked him, after a few meetings, I asked him, “Hey, would you be willing to teach me what you do?” And he was pretty hesitant because at that time he wasn’t teaching anybody. He was just straight wholesaling houses. From his viewpoint, he was going to be training his competition.
Andrew: He didn’t know how serious I was. He could train me for three, or four, five, six months and then I end up not following through and that’s a lot of time and effort that he’s wasted there. So I was going to join the Rich Dad coaching program. And those days it was only . . . only $6500. Today it’s like, I don’t know 40 grand or something like 45 to 40 grand. But that’s a lot of money. When you’re only making $30,000 a year, $6500 is a lot of money. I don’t have a credit card. So my girlfriend at that time, who’s now my wife, said “Why don’t you call Preston and tell him what you’re about to do. If he gives his blessing, then you have my blessing too.” And I said, “It’s a great idea.”
So I called him up. It was a Sunday. I called him up and I said, “Preston, I’m getting ready to join the Rich Dad Coaching Program. What do you think about that?” And he said, “How much is it?” I said, “6500” and he said “No, no, no. Don’t do that. Meet me at Starbucks tomorrow. This time bring your checkbook and we’ll figure something out. So I gave him a check that was much less than 6500. I think it was like a 1000 bucks something like that and the rest is history. I became his very first student. Six months later I quit my job, cold turkey. I was still in his coaching program, but I flipped a couple of houses. I felt really, really good about what I could do in this business especially if I had more time to really get out there.
So I quit my job. I cashed in my 401k. I open up a low interest credit card and I said I’m just going to go for it. This is it. And I’m going to make it happen. If I ever needed a job again I could always get back to the radio station. I have plenty of friends in corporate positions that could bring me back. But you know what, I never had to do it man and thank God. I could never do it today. But it’s the last job I ever had. I’ve been flipping houses actively on my own since ’06. I launched my coaching program, Wholesale Coaching Inc in 2008. And I’ve been doing both ever since and between personal and student closings, I’ve done hundreds of wholesale transactions. But that’s my story.
Mike: That’s great. That’s great. I want to talk about a little bit about, just kind a high level overview of wholesaling which you know like the back of your hand. And a lot of people that are listening, we have a lot of very experienced people that I know listen to this show as well. But just give an overview of how you define wholesaling.
Andrew: Yeah, the best way I can define it and what I tell people who aren’t familiar with it, is to give them an example. My example is, we are realtors for fixer uppers. So we broker the deal, that’s what we are. Just like a realtor is a broker. They’re not a buyer. They’re not a seller. They’re middle man who brings those two entities together and charge a fee. So that’s what we do. We are broker of wholesale transactions which means, you’re selling on wholesale and you’re also buying on wholesale. We broker that deal. We’re the middle man and we charge a fee. A realtor charge a percentage. We charge a flat fee. It depends on how low we can negotiate the purchase price. How high we can negotiate the selling price. That’s what we make in the business.
But that’s basically it. We are a wholesale broker of real estate and we can make . . . there’s no income ceiling. There’s also no risk in what we do because we’re not actually buying, we’re not taking titles, we’re not doing any of those stuff. We’re not making repairs. As a broker, if we need to get out of a deal, we can do that. So there’s no risk. There’s no income ceiling. And it’s really a pretty neat business to get into.
Mike: Yeah, and when you say no risk you’re saying, if you choose you can have something in your contract that gives you the ability to terminate the contract or something and so . . .
Andrew: Yeah, wholesaling, you have to have at least one out clause in your purchase contracts so my out clause comes by way of an inspection period. So my contracts says, something to the effect of “Property must pass final inspection or buyer’s final inspection prior to transfer of title” or something like that.
Andrew: What that does, that basically gives me right up to the closing table the option to cancel due to a failed inspection. So it is full proof. It’s perfectly legal. Now we don’t like using that out clause. That’s a last ditch resort. That’s if we absolutely have to get out of the deal but it’s a big time waster, not only for us, but also for the seller who’s typically in a little bit of a pinch, a bind anyway. So you don’t want to do that. But you have to protect yourself also. You need some insurance. So that’s really it man.
Andrew: As long as smart about your contracts, there is no risk in the deal.
Mike: Yeah. No, I think it is important to say, I know you believe in the same thing, you don’t ever want to mislead people that you’re buying a house from. Because like you said, a lot of times they are in a difficult situation where they need some sort of closure. So sometimes it make sense to have the ability to terminate. Sometimes I’ve wholesaled a lot of houses but I’ve generally got them under contract in a way to where I want to try to wholesale it, and if I can’t, I’ll take it down myself and do something with it. So they can probably the main difference between us and a realtor, is you kind of compare too, is generally we’re taking equitable interest in the property. We usually have a contract to purchase versus just they hired us and we have no equitable interest in the property.
Mike: Yeah, but there are some ways you can structure to where it’s low risk and things like that. Great. Great. Yeah. You know what’s interesting to me is when I first got into real estate investing, friends, and family members, and stuff, they just didn’t believe like . . . because you’d say, “I’m going to find the deals and I’m going to mark him up and sell it to somebody else.” And always, the common belief was, “Why would somebody buy it from you? Why they just don’t buy it themselves?” And until you are a wholesaler, you don’t realize how hard of a work it is to find and source deals, right?
Andrew: That’s really the key.
Mike: That’s the hardest part of this whole business.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s what most people say and that’s a lot of times I tell my students that is, you’re not technically a real estate investor. You’re not investing anything in real estate. You’re investing some time, but you’re not buying houses, you’re not selling houses. What you are and what you really need to be, is an expert in marketing. That’s the real key. You’ve got to get the phone ringing. And that is why so many rehabbers and landlords buy from us because they value the service that we bring. We do all the front end marketing, negotiating, contracting, all these things that either they don’t know how to do or they don’t want to do.
Andrew: So it’s worth it. It’ll be worth it for me, I already know if I were a cash buyer, rehab or landlord, I would be perfectly happy to buy from a wholesaler if they will do all that work for me. And that’s something . . . I mean answer the phones of the wholesaler to flip a couple of houses a month, you need to fuel like a hundred calls.
Andrew: So these rehabbers, they’re out there, they’re managing contractors and workers and they got multiple crews going at one time. They might have 50 rentals or 100 rentals. All these different things, they don’t have time nor the inclination to answer or callback a 100 people.
Mike: Right. And go meet with them. To sit on the couch listen to their stories, try to solve their problems. And for the same reason that most people listen into this call don’t change their own oil or cut their own hair, right? And it’s a service. You know that somebody is marking it up and they’re going to make money on it and you’re okay with that.
Andrew: [inaudible 00:15:53].
Andrew: But who wants to do that.
Andrew: It’ll you twice as long, you get oil everywhere, it’s going to be trial and error, or you can just pay somebody 30 bucks to go do it for you.
Andrew: It’s the same thing.
Mike: Yeah. Awesome. So talk a little bit about lead generation. You talked about the importance of being a good marketer in generating leads. Maybe you could share some of your insights of some of the ways that you generate leads.
Andrew: Yeah. There’s a bunch of different ways to do it. Some generate more than others. Some generate mass leads or others are smaller in number and quantity but maybe more qualified, more high quality. So the main staple of my marketing plan is direct mail. Direct mail to me is the most . . . I don’t know if it’s the most cost efficient but it’s the most effective if you want mass amounts of leads. So if you’re looking for a couple of leads here and there, you might be able to do something else.
But if you want 100, 200, 300 leads a month, you can accomplish that with direct mail. You’re not going to accomplish that necessarily with a newspaper classified ad, though that could be very effective too. But you’re not going to get those types of numbers with that. You’re not going to get that probably through a lead gen websites. I mean, you can crank out some leads through that but probably not in the hundreds.
Andrew: You’re not going to get that with bandit signs. So I believe it’s important to have a, what I call a well-rounded marketing mix. I never want to put all my eggs in one basket just in case that doesn’t pull leads that much or sufficient amount of leads to what I need. But generally the bulk of my marketing budget goes into direct mail and I usually mail to several different lists. I mail to absentee owners that have the equity that I need.
So I pull that list from a website called listsource.com. You can pull a targeted list and then it’ll cost a couple of 100 bucks to get a 2500 person list that you can mail to. And you can keep that for a long time. That’ll be useful for a long time. I also mail to, I have a subscription to a website called RealtyTrac.com which I really like. So you can pull targeted lists from RealtyTrac also. So I pull a list that is homeowners in foreclosure within 60 days of having their house auctioned off, but also has at least 30% equity in their house.
Mike: So like a pre-foreclosure list or something?
Andrew: Yeah. I don’t know if they’re for pre-foreclosure. I mean they have been there for a while.
Andrew: You’re in Florida. It takes a long time to get foreclosed on. I think they may have tightened up the laws now, but for years we were one of the slowest states, if not the slowest, on actually foreclosing people. I mean, you could literally skip up a mortgage payment for three years. . .
Andrew: [inaudible 00:19:21] I think it’s a little quicker now. But the court system, the laws were very slow. So the people that are facing an auction, they’ve been in foreclosure for a while. And if they were within 30 or 60 days of an auction they really have no choice.
Mike: Yeah, more motivated and need a solution for their problem at that point.
Andrew: They need a cash fire or they’re going to lose their house because by this time they’re not able to get themselves out and they’re not able to hire a realtor to sell on the open market because it’s just not enough time.
Andrew: You know, 30 to 60 days not time. We need 90 to 120, you need some time, especially if the house needs work.
Andrew: You’ll be surprised, when you pull that kind of list off of RealtyTrac, you can get some nice high-end homes too. Which is nice because then you get some nice spreads on that one. Thirty, 40, 50 grand a pop. It’s not that often because mostly people that are in high-end homes like that aren’t in that kind of position or may have access to cash or something like that. But you’ll find some here and there.
Mike: Sure. Sure. Maybe share your thoughts on the importance of consistency because I know you and I both know how critical that is. I think a lot of newer real estate investors or even some veteran people, they’ll throw some money at something, they try something and they say it doesn’t work. But a lot of times it was because they just tried one time or half-heartedly and. . .
Andrew: Yeah, you have to try things multiple times, especially to direct mail. I always tell people, “You should judge your direct mail campaign by your third and/or fourth mailing.” Your first mail, you make get a deal or two on your first mailing but most likely you probably won’t. Second mailing you should generate more calls, third mailing more, fourth even more. There’s, I guess, a study out there or kind a like a rule that a consumer needs to hear or see your ad or experience your ad at least three times before they pick up the phone and call. So you really need to make a commitment when you’re mailing.
With other things it can be a little different, like with bandit signs and stuff like that. You can judge that off of one time putting them out. But with mailing, it’s a commitment. You have to have enough cash in the bank to do four mailings. If you only have enough money to do one mailing and you better get a deal out of that mailing or you’re going to be out of business. You’re in trouble.
Andrew: You don’t want to be in that position. But it takes consistency and you really have to track what you’re doing. So I have a tracking sheet that I give my students. But you can easily make one on an Excel spreadsheet or even write one down, I mean if you wanted to. I put out a hundred bandit signs, I got 20 calls. I made five offers. I got one deal. And you can calculate your cost to deal ratio and stuff like that. And figure out, “If I put out 200 bandit signs this time, maybe I’ll get two deals for those kind of things.
So you really have to track. And then after your campaigns over, after four mailings, or at the end of the month or however you do it, you need to review what’s working, what’s not working. Why is it not working? Is it the message you’re sending? Is it the postcard? The size of the postcard. The color of the postcard. The verbiage I’m using, was it the day of the week that I sent and all these things that come into play. And you try and figure it out and then you send it out again.
Andrew: You send out another four mailings and then you evaluate. That’s a big key to what we do is tracking and evaluating and then consistently marketing.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, consistency is key. We talk a lot about what it takes to be successful and one of the things that comes up all the time is that, unfortunately a lot of people treat it more like a hobby than a business and they just try a couple of things here and there. They dabble and then they say, “Well this doesn’t work,” and its because they didn’t treat it seriously. They just were not consistent with marketing, didn’t track any of the results so they don’t know what actually did work or what didn’t work. So those things are definitely critical.
Andrew: Yeah, it can’t be a hobby. At least from a wholesaling perspective because you’re in there doing. You’re in the trenches doing a lot of things. So now it can . . . your business can grow to a point where you can sort of put it on autopilot. You can maybe bring in a partner like I did. Outsource some of your duties to him and outsource some other things, virtual assistance, and stuff like that. You can get it on autopilot but it’s still a business that needs tending too. When you’re first starting out, it absolutely cannot be a hobby. You have to be consumed by it. And that doesn’t mean that you have to spend all day everyday trying to work on this business and get it up and going.
I started this business, I was working a full time job. So I dedicated my nights and weekends to it. So it doesn’t . . . I always tell people when they ask me, “Can I do it while still working a full time job?” My answer is always, “Yes.” It doesn’t matter if you work 12 hours a day or 2 hours a day, in my opinion. It does matter though how focused you are. Those two hours a day, are you sitting there without any distractions, focusing on your business? Or do you have kids running around? Your wife’s pulling you in different directions and all this different stuff. You need that singular focus and you have to be determined.
Andrew: Be focused. Be laser focused. Treat it like the business that it is and you’ll get the results that you’re looking for. If you treat it like a hobby, you’re going to get hobby results.
Andrew: Which are nothing. And you’re going to say this doesn’t work.
Mike: Yep. That’s a good segue to kind of talking about the mental conditioning part of this because not only do you need to take it seriously but even if your business is successful, every successful real estate investor I know still has lots of ups and downs. And lots of downs. And those ups, they come in every once in a while. They can make all the downs . . . they kind a cancel it out in your mind. But you’ve got to be able to live through those times. So maybe share some of the things that you teach on the importance of staying mentally sharp and being able to weather the storm.
Andrew: Yeah, there’s a couple of things that I think are important. One is, you have to understand that it’s going to be a little bit of a roller coaster. Now what you really want is, you want your roller coaster to be up here rather than down here. So you want a six figure roller coaster rather than a $30,000 roller coaster. One of those kind of things. But it’s going to be a roller coaster.
You might flip for an average guy. You might flip five houses in one month, but you might flip one house the next month and zero house after that and then three after that and so on. I don’t think there’s a way that’s possible to structure your business to where you’re flipping a specific amount of houses every single month. So you know it’s not a job. That’s the only downside.
But when you can see the upside of how much money you can make, it’s certainly worth the risk. Just understand there’s going to be really good times and there’s going to be tough times. But you’ve got to structure your business to where you can overcome that stuff.
Two is, you have to be in a mental mindset that is conducive to be successful, not only in this business but in any business. So how do you do that? I’m a big believer in things like positive affirmations and stuff like that. I was taught that by my mentor. I teach that to my students and to this day I recite affirmations. They’re more like confirmations. There’s a great book out there called . . . it’s been so long since I read that. I think it’s “Secrets of a Millionaire Mind” by T. Harv Eker. You can pick it up on Amazon for 10 bucks or 15 bucks or something like that. It is a great, great read. Anybody can read it.
It’s not for the master investor or a super-rich. It’s for a regular guy that want to know how to think like a millionaire, act like a millionaire, manage your money like a millionaire. All these different things. It’s a great starting point. It’s a mandatory reading for all my students. Step one, buy “Secrets of a Millionaire Mind,” read it. In there he gives you a list of affirmations or confirmations I think he calls it and I still read them to this day. And everyday I wake up it’s part of my morning routine.
Andrew: My affirmations. He teaches you how to manage your money. You’re going to open up six different bank accounts. One account is going to be for continuing education. One is going to be for business. One is going to be for savings. One is going to be for fun. All these different things and there’s a certain percentage that goes on each one. It’s really, really neat and it’s a different way of looking at it than most people look at it.
Andrew: So most people look at finances or business from the eyes of a millionaire. Most people look at it from the eyes of a non-millionaire.
Andrew: But we want to get there. So you need to do things that are going to get you in that mindset of what I call a crusher. You got to get a mindset of a crusher. Whether you’ve got to do positive affirmation, meditations, whether a physical fitness routine as part of it. Whatever gets you going and makes you feel confident and self assured and instills that belief in you that you are going to be successful in this business no matter what, that needs to be done. You create a routine, especially a morning routine. You wake up. You do this, this, and this and then I’m ready to start my day.
So my routine incorporates affirmations, meditation, a CrossFit workout. All these things are important to me to not only feel good, to think clearly, to feel strong and confident, to where I feel like it doesn’t matter what comes about. Whether I think I’m going to make a 50 grand on a flip and I lose the contract, it doesn’t matter. I can move on from that. I can figure out what I could learn from it, it won’t crush me. Also, I can attract all kinds of opportunities and all these things into my life. So that’s it man. You got to understand that you’re going to have ups and downs. Be prepared for them. And two is, you’ve got to do whatever it takes to get yourself into the mind of a crusher so that you can’t be derailed.
Mike: Yeah, I think it’s important, especially in real estate. Most real estate investors are . . . it can be a lonely business if you’re out there on your own. Like you said, you’re generally probably not talking to a lot of people because they’re probably your competitors so you’re kind of tight lip. So you isolate yourself in many ways unless you have some out or some ability to stay sharp. It’s easy to start to convince yourself because you’re in this dark corner that maybe you should be doing something else, or maybe this doesn’t work, or maybe this doesn’t work anymore, or whatever it is. And so whether it’s a mastermind or like you said exercise. Just some ways to stay sharp and be able to fight those battles and fight on another day.
Andrew: Yeah, working on yourself is equally, if not more important, than working on your business.
Andrew: You can work on your business all day everyday. But if you don’t believe that you can be successful, if you’re not confident, if you’re scared to talk to sellers, if you get discouraged and disappointed very easily, you’re just spinning your wheels.
Andrew: You’re just working and working and working and not seeing anything. It’s really a two part equation. You’ve got to have the knowledge and get some experience and the wisdom. But you also have to have that determination. That want. If you bring both of those together, then action.
Andrew: Determination and action, couple that with knowledge and information, and then you’ve got something real there.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And thank you so much for sharing all of these today. If people want to learn more about you, where should they go?
Andrew: Yeah, my coaching site is WholesaleCoaching.com. There’s all kinds of information there. You’ll see testimonials. You’ll learn about me and my background in more detail. All that stuff there. You can apply. You can book your own appointment for us to get on the phone together. I have a blog with tons of free information on there. It’s AndrewMassaro.com. You spell my last name M-A-S-S-A-R-O. So AndrewMassaro.com. There’s ton of free info there. I have a podcast on iTunes. It’s called House Flipping Podcast, Wholesale Coaching Inc. and you’ll see it there if you’ll just search “real estate investing.” I think that’s about it.
Mike: Awesome man.
Andrew: I’m out there man.
Mike: Not too hard to find you. Well hey thanks again for spending time with us today and sharing your insights. I appreciate it and hope you’ll stay in touch.
Andrew: Thanks Mike, take care.
Mike: Have a good day.
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