Flipping with Your Family

Mike:This is the flipnerd.com “Expert Real Estate Investing Show,” the show for real estate investors, whether you’re a veteran or brand new. I’m your host, Mike Hambright, and each week I bring you a new expert guest that will share their knowledge and lessons with you. If you’re excited about real estate investing, believe in personal responsibility and taking control of your life and financial destiny, you’re in the right place.
This is episode number 437. And my guest today is Brandon Smith, who operates out of Houston, Texas. Brandon and his family have bought about 500 houses over the last nine years and have truly built a family business with several family members working in the business. Real estate investing is actually a great business to work with your family in. And but there are lots of potential pitfalls. I know because I work with my wife every day for the last 11 years.
But today we discuss the pros and cons of working with family members from determining the rights seats that people should be in to overcoming conflicts that are inevitable to occur in your business. We also wrap the show . . . Brian has a ton of experience around lending and banking. We wrap up the show by talking about banking and how to start building relationships right now with lenders in your market that will serve you very well if the market starts to slow down. Let’s go ahead and get started. Please help me welcome Brandon Smith to the show. Hey, Brandon, welcome to the show.
Brandon:Hey, Mike. Thanks for having me.
Mike:Yeah, yeah, glad to have you on my brother from down the road about five hours in Houston.
Brandon:That’s right. H Town. Love it, baby.
Mike:Yeah, awesome, man. Well, I’m excited to talk about this today. I mean, we, you know, just to let to listeners know, we always talk about whenever I have guests on, we usually catch up for a little while before we start the show. And we’re like, “Well, let’s talk about some things we could talk about.” And I know you have a family owned business. I work with my wife, but you have your whole family a big part of your family involved. And it’s not really something that we’ve ever really spent a lot of time talking about. And I think real estate investors tend to be very much, you know, husband and wife team, two brothers, father, son. Lots of kind of family combination. So I thought it’d be a great opportunity to talk about that.
Brandon:Yeah, I tell you what, it’s been a true blessing working with family. And, you know, since we started the business, it’s always been that way. We’ve never really partnered up with anybody or even done, you know, JV deals. You know, all the stuff we’ve done, we’ve done as a family unit. You know, initially, it started out with me, my father-in-law, and that was nine years ago. And now he’s kind of exited the business and now working with, you know, his children and, you know, my brother-in-law, sister-in-laws and so forth, and just trying to be a team unit overall.
Mike:Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. So before we kind of dive into this in too much detail, tell us a little bit about your background and what you did before you got into real estate investing nine years ago, and kind of how you got started?
Brandon:Yeah. So, you know, how we got started in real estate, I was in oil patch and I was a headhunter making a lot of cold calls and, you know, at the age of 25 to 27 I was, you know, being pretty successful financially, you know, as successful as a 26, 27-year-old would at the time. You know, and I tell you what, the oil field market was booming then. Oil is $145 a barrel. And then literally, within one day oil, just, you know, cut in half. You know, and, of course, for our economy down to here to Houston, it just really crippled us.
And I was a small minority partner in that firm, and it ended up going under or relocating basically and we downsized. And I had been, you know, listening to a local radio show here in Houston, which is also plays up in Dallas, you know, during the lunch breaks and just, you know, I had worked on houses as a kid. You know, my dad he built four houses in Travis County, you know, before we actually moved. I worked on those all houses as a kid and I vowed at the age of 16 never to work on a home again. I was laying insulation in an attic and it was 145 degrees in it and it was just, you know, I would never work on another house.
And so what happened, you know, the downturn of the market, you know, my father-in-law and mother-in-law, they lost a significant amount of money in the stock market. And, you know, we just sat down over Christmas break and he goes, you know, “What else can we maybe do to be financially set and set the family up and be secure?” You know, and I said, “Tell you what, I’ve been listening to the show. I know a little bit about houses.” You know, I said, “Let’s just take a shot at it. Initially, we were only going to buy two houses and effectively retire we thought. That’s . . .
Mike:That doesn’t work out for you?
Brandon:Not quite worked out that way. I think we’re closing in on just over $500 on houses bought since 2009. So real close. And I think one of the biggest benefits that we had, you know, we were going to pay cash for these two houses and move down the line and make them rental properties. And I happened to know a banker, and we went into that bank and we had no business plan. We had no model, no history, and we literally walked out with a half million dollar line of credit. You know, and this is in 2009. You know, there was no banking institutions. You know, and it was just pretty amazing that . . .
Mike:At least not ones that we’re lending to investors anymore.
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely. This happened to be a new startup day here locally and times are tough and they needed loans. We had capital. You know, we had credit and we filled up a $500,000 line of credit with rental property about six months. And they go, “Hey, do you want another half mil?” You know, we’re like, “Oh, sure, I guess.” So that was fun for the family kind of experiencing that. And then we started . . . you know, we bought a lot of houses in that 2009, 2010 series. Those years to really solidify our rental portfolio and we still own a good amount of those houses today.
Mike:That’s great. That’s great. So then as things kind of grew, so let’s start with you and your father -in-law. And then you started kind of bolting on more members. But before we kind of get into it, let’s just talk about maybe real high level. Like I said, it’s either a blessing or a curse to work with your family, right? Some people . . . and it’s probably not for everybody, honestly, right. But, I think, you know, my wife and I work together. We’ve talked about we talked about this before. She’s been on the show before one time and we have very different skill sets.
So I think that’s one of the things that’s helped us is like, you do these that I’m not good at, and there’s things that I do that she wouldn’t be good at. And the thing is, is we know that. Like we kind of joke that if it was just her, she never would have bought a house because she’s very risk averse. And if it was just me, I would have ran into cash management problems a long time ago and probably wiped us out, you know, just not from doing anything wrong, just from mismanagement of cash which is important. But talk about the importance of like defining your roles I guess
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely. And that’s probably one of the toughest things as you work with your family and build out your company and we decided to add family members just based on the trust alone, you know, running a business and predominately if you hired acquisitions manager. There’s a lot of accountability. There’s a lot of . . . you know, I’ve heard some horror stories on hiring acquisitions manager where they steal the lead or they don’t try to buy it deep enough.
If that acquisitions manager which is my brother-in-law has a vested interest in the company, then he’s going to work severely hard on that offer, on that seller, you know, to execute. You know, and that was one of our first that was one of our first hires as far as promoting him up to acquisitions manager and then we were able to add my second brother-in-law to run the rental portfolio. And just recently added, you know, my sister-in-law to help some of our marketing programs.
So in all those steps, in all of those additions are simply based on growth and company needs. You know, you often talk about how, you know, it’s hard to hire the right person. And in at the end of the day, I would rather have my family by my side than necessarily hiring you out. And we do have other people that work and those people are blessings to and they work extremely hard and, you know, it’s just that trust factor more than anything.
Mike:If you’re an active real estate investor already doing deals and looking to double or triple your business, you should consider joining the Investor Fuel Real Estate Investor Mastermind. We’re a small group of investors that share our best practices, tips, and tricks with one another in an effort to all win. We limit our membership to only one to two members per market. So everyone shares their knowledge, tips, and tricks openly and honestly.
Our members include some buying one to two houses a month, up to some of the most respected investors and leaders in the real estate investing industry, some of which have personally done over 1,000 deals. If you’d like to be considered for our invitation-only, world-class mastermind, please visit investorfuel.com to request your personal invitation. Our next meeting is coming up quickly. Go to investorfuel.com now to learn more.
Brandon: . . . they work extremely hard. And, you know, it’s just that trust factor more than anything.
Mike:Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. Have you been in a situation where you have a family member . . . you have a kind of a role and needs to be filled. And so what I found in the past is I’ve always struggled with this because I used to say, if I find a good athlete, I’ll find a place for them. You know, but the reality is like, the role in the business is really what’s most important, and somebody that can do that. And I know sometimes if you’re limiting it to just the people around you, the family, the trust factors there, but they may not be the best person for that role, right?
And I’m not, you know, sometimes you just accept that. It’s like, hey, they’re going to be loyal, they’re going to be trustworthy, and they’re going to have to learn how to do this. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But how do you overcome that situation of kind of putting somebody in to where you need them, even though if it’s not necessarily their best strength?
Brandon:Yeah, so and we’ve been through this. We’ve got a couple members where they probably weren’t in the best spot to excel. You know, not only at that specific job, but also they realize what works best for the family outcome, you know. And we shuffled a couple of people around and got them in the right spots. And, you know, you got to do that by trial and error, sitting down the bellybutton, bellybutton, and going over thing with them, and just working with them on a daily basis. But yeah, we’ve been through those trials and tribulations as a family and finding the right spots for everybody.
Mike:Yeah.
Brandon:And that’s important. I mean, as we talked about earlier is that the roles that we have for the individuals don’t necessarily cross paths. It’s a very specific role. Everybody has their own tasks or, you know, their objectives in order to create and hopefully we can move it towards a greater good.
Mike:Yeah, yeah, and that’s awesome. And we kind of found that early on too is like you have to divide up your responsibilities instead of just saying, “Hey, it’s our business. We all do everything.” You have to kind of define it. Just like you would in a Fortune 500 company, right? Like this is your seat. These are your responsibilities inside of here. Have you had any problems with people that feel like, well, this is my seat, but I really want to be in that seat. And, you know, I can imagine some conflicts there.
Brandon:Yeah. I mean, it happens. But, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, you have to have . . . you know, Gary Sharper [SP] often talks about hierarchy. And, you know, we have that stuff in place, you know, and that stuff is in place for a reason to help offset any objectives or any concerns. You know, running a family-owned company, it’s you’re tremendously open about everything, almost too open sometimes probably.
But that’s what’s fun about it. That’s what makes it interesting. You know, it’s not only from the 9:00 to 5:00 job, but it’s when we go hang out with them over the weekend, over the holidays. You know, it doesn’t stop. You know, whether that lead comes in over Thanksgiving dinner and say, “Hey, Pat, did you grab that lead?” “Well, it’s Thanksgiving.” “Well, no, we need a driver right quick.” You know?
Mike:Yeah. It’s kind of funny. Yeah. I’ve told you this jokingly up front. My wife and I, all the time, we, like, have date night. We’re like, we’re not going to talk about work tonight. And we’re, like, three minutes later, we’re talking about work. But the thing is when you do, I would say this, when you do something that you really enjoy, or where it’s really kind of set your family up financially. Like you built a strong foundation. Like it is kind of our life. Like, I don’t really have, it’s not like I have some job, some 9:00 to 5:00 job that I’m doing to survive, and I really hate it. And then I come home and I’m like I’m a different person.
Like my life and my business are just kind of intertwined. It’s like on social media, like, you know, I’m not a different person when I’m on the weekends, and a different person during the day. Like, you know, I’m just the same guy. But I guess when you really enjoy what you do, it’s hard to separate kind of your personal life from your business life, right?
Brandon:Yeah. I mean, it’s a huge challenge. You know, but I definitely agree with you. It’s just a part of who we are and how we grown it to where it’s at now.
Mike:Yeah, yeah. Well, what do you do about conflicts? Like how do you decide like as a family business, like what if somebody wanted to keep more rentals and somebody wanted to flip more like? How do you make those decisions?
Brandon:Yeah. I mean, I pretty much make those decisions on a daily basis. You know, going back to the hierarchy and chain. But, I mean, we sit down once a quarter as a family. We go over . . . my father-in-law and my mother-in-law are the capital investors within our company. And we, you know, I basically kind of report back to the investors on a quarterly basis and kind of go over everything with them. We had a recent change in direction. I mean, we were heavy, heavy rental for many, many years. And over the last three, four years, we’ve started to flip a lot more houses and create that revenue that’s needed to survive.
And, you know, we haven’t grown our rental portfolio that much, but that’s because our market has changed or, you know, our appreciation in Houston is strong. I mean, year after year, we’re sending 6%, you know, 9% interest in that gap, pending the subdivision. You know, that’s really significant increase, you know, for our market. It’s not Las Vegas style, or Miami, but 6% to 9% over a year after year, you know, that’s substantial increase, you know?
Mike:Yeah, we see the same thing here. Most of our rentals are ones, not all of them, but a lot of them, we kept from ’09 to ’12 and they’re worth two, three, sometimes four times where we paid for them now. You know, so it’s been harder to add . . . I think that’s a common thing. When it’s a retail . . . when it’s seller’s market, right, you generally make more money doing more selling activities in this business, right? So I think if things slow down, you guys, probably just like us, we’ll start to basically keep more again, right, because that’s what you do in a slower market.
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I know there’s a lot of stuff on Facebook and other gurus are talking about a potential slow down soon. In pockets of Houston, there’s a little bit of that going on. But overall, the economy, I think is still going to be pushed along. And it’d be fine, you know.
Mike:Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. So what kind of advice would you give to people that are starting up? Or, you know, we know people that have been in business for a few years, but now their spouse is going to come on board and they’re going to bring a family member out. What are some of the tips you would give them to make that transition and kind of be, you know, have your eyes open as to what some of the things could go south?
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely. I think the number one thing is got to be able to afford them. You know, you can’t just create role because you want your spouse or, you know, family to work with you. There has to be a financial need. Like any employee that comes to the table it’s got to be fruitful, right? And I think that’s the number one thing and figuring out what their skillset is. Because even within family members, you know, we talked about are you a high red or you a green? And better understanding that process, because it really determines on that individual to be success. You know, so that’s kind of what I was doing.
Mike:Yeah, we talked a lot about the DiSC profile. I’m just seeing what’s your skillset? What’s your right skill set? Right? And so I think, you know, it really helps . . . personality profiles like that really help you understand, because sometimes people think, “Well, I really love doing this.” But when you see their skillset from a personality profile, it’s like, “Yeah, but you’re not good at it.” There’s those things that even like with my wife and I, there’s things that she does that she’s very good at, but she just doesn’t like to do it. But, you know, you always have to have that balance, right, of like, well, there’s going to be some things that you have to do that you might not like, and then we’re going to try to mix in some things that you do, like, and we think you can bring the business forward there, right?
Brandon:Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Mike:Everybody has roles like that. Like, you know, you might be the CEO of the company but sometimes you got to change a light bulb or do something else.
Brandon:Mow lawns.
Mike:As a small business, like, you just got to do what you got to do when it needs it. Right?
Brandon:Yeah. And that brings up an interesting point. And I think that’s the other thing working with the family that we didn’t talk about. I mean, anything that is asked, there’s not much kickback. You know, “Hey, can you run over here and do that? Can you go over here and do that?” You know, and it’s everybody working hard together for success. You know,
Mike:Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like . . . because you guys have done a fair bit of volume and do you feel like with family on the team that would enable you to grow faster if you wanted to?
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely because I’ve got my key people in place, that going back to the trust factor, and going back to the performance. I mean, we wouldn’t keep them in that role or that position if they weren’t performing. And now I’m able to add on people that are such important to our business, like accounting, you know, full time office manager, you know, having that person that’s dedicated to the numbers game on the backside, you know, that person, you know, we’ve been able to add her, and she’s been a tremendous help to our company, you know. I mean, none of us are very good at that. You know, none of us are very good at the accounting in and out, debits, credits, but she’s amazing. So we went out and got it on the outside, you know.
Mike:Yeah, I want to tie together a couple things you said about bringing someone from the outside because the things that you’re not good at. And the fact of needing to be able to afford team members. So there’s a lot of, I think newer investors that just assume I’m going to build a team, but you really have to kind of stair step your business. I mean, if you’re doing a house or two a month, and you’re wholesaling, like you can do it yourself, right? But then it’s like, “Hey, I really need to bring on an office manager.” It’s like “Okay, well, you need to like every time you look at adding an expense, you need to look at how I can bring in more revenue, right, to offset that.
And so you know, that as you get to maybe three to five, then you’re bringing on acquisitions managers and a buyer if you’re rehabbing, maybe a rehab manager or project manager of some sort. But, I mean, you agree with what I’m saying there, right? You’ve got to basically find ways to grow your business. And so the business basically just gets better and easier for you. Not that it’s ever easy, but as you can stair step your business and grow it, right?
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely. And it helps us to break down our individual performances and go faster. And build things more importantly. You know, whether it’s rehabbing more houses. Getting the rental property when a vacancy occurs. Getting that rental property from it being vacant for two months because I kind of forgot about it over here to getting it back, ready to go within two weeks, you know, or something like that. So it just allows us to be more specific and getting more efficiency for the company.
Mike:So how’s your bench strength looking? We got some youngin’s coming up to take over positions, or how’s that looking?
Brandon:Yeah, there’s plenty of grandkids in this family to go around.
Mike:I think it’s the first time ever said the word youngin’s, but I guess it’s kind of fitting here in Texas. But my point is that do you guys think about that is, like, children that are coming up like, hopefully they can take on these roles or he’s going to be a good acquisitions manager. I always said about my son like he’s like a ringer and a negotiator. So, you know, he’s only 11 now. But we’re kind of planning for him down the road.
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely. We’ve got nieces and nephews that we think strategically later on 17, 20 years from now after college hopefully they’ll be prepared to come in.
Mike:Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Awesome.
Brandon:But I’m sure they’re already riding around with dad, they’re rehabbing houses, rental houses. I mean, they’re getting exposed at the age of two and up.
Mike:Yeah, yeah, cool. Hey, well, I got you. I want to talk real fast because I know you have a lot of experience with lending and raising money on the banking side. I want to get your thoughts on, you know, the market is slowing down a little bit. We see like you see some pockets in DFW and other markets around the country. It’s usually some of the higher end markets or higher end parts of markets that we see slowing down a little bit more. A lot of the first time stuff is still pretty strong. But, you know, we’ve been through this before.
When you started and when I started, the market was slow and they were . . . you kind of heard from the people that have been in business for a while about what they wish they had done in terms of lending and what they will do the next time, right? So it’s kind of to have some of those strong relationships going into it down market because a couple of those relationships might fall out. And so you don’t have all your eggs in one basket. But if people are listening right now, and they feel like their market is slowing down, or has the potential to start slowing down, what should they be doing right now to prepare, like, lending relationships for whatever happens in the market?
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely. Great question. And this is something I wish I had. We started our business in 2009. And like I said, we went into that, you know, went into that banker’s office and walked out with half million dollar line of credit, and filled it up with rentals. I wish I had more of those. You know, I wasn’t prepared, you know, because we were newbies in the game. You know, but what we’re doing now is we’ve secured capital for many months to years to come in the event of that and I can’t stress enough that rentals work really good in a downward market, and you’ve got to have the capital in order to get it and we’re prepared for that.
You know, in 2009, 2010, we were newbies. We didn’t have it. You know, we were trying to create it on the fly. And it’s a great time, especially in Texas, I know, on the community bank side to get going on some of your lines of credit. You know, you can walk into a bank and traditionally if you’ve got some history of flip houses or rental houses, you are able to put a CD down and talk to the banker about potentially getting a line of credit and using that line of credit, you know, often. You know, they won’t give you $2 million and you just let it sit there. You know, you’ve got to be able to use it, you know, over time and prepare yourself for the downward potential turn.
You know, but yeah, I mean, in 2009, 2010, we were buying, you know, rental properties in Katy, Texas on the slab that I’m just kicking myself because I didn’t have enough money available to . . . you know, I could have bought 50 more houses, probably, but we weren’t capitalized enough but now we are.
So I would really stress to the viewers that, you know, start working on it now, because you really don’t know what’s coming down the path. You know, and not only that it’s always great to have, you know, lower cost of funds. I mean, it improves your business. It makes you a stronger investor. You know, you’re not having to go out and use hard money, private money. Yeah, it does work and it’s good.
You know, I still use it on sometimes too but just my raw cash position is different than some of the guys because we are capitalized within the bank system. You know, and I recommend . . . I know that, you know, I talked about it often in our mastermind group Investor Fuel, the Bank Bible, you know, and getting that setup and all that kind of fun stuff. So . . .
Mike:Talk about that for a minute, your Bank Bible. I forgot about it until you just mentioned it. It’s a pretty cool idea. So maybe just share a few thoughts on it.
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely. It didn’t come from me. It came from another investor here locally in Houston. I’m sure you know who he is. But so basically, you get a three-ring binder and take your last two years of tax returns. They’ll also be looking or maybe get some photos of your last rehabs. Put those in there. And, you know, any bank statements you may have as well. You know, kind of stack them in there.
Now, your Bank Bible may start out kind of small but over the years, you know, you’ll see it grow. And when you walk into that bank and you’re talking to the lender about potentially getting a line of credit for flips or rental, you know, I like to come in and kind of boom, slam it down right in front of him. You know, it’s an attention grabber is what it is.
Because here’s the deal the bankers know, you know, guys like us are out there but if you want to have a relationship with the bank, it’s just a fun way to kind of get going now. He or she may might not take your Bank Bible. They’ll probably end up just telling you email me all this stuff. But you will turn some heads because you prepared, you’re ready to go. And it allows a simpler process. It tells the banker that, “Hey, this guy’s for real, you know, and see what we can do.”
Mike:Yeah. And the purpose it’s kind of your portfolio, right? It’s information about you. They’re going to ask you for financials eventually. And they want some proof of your track record. And, you know, truthfully, whether you’re interviewing for a job and you’re kind of sending out resumes, I mean, as an employer, I can tell you, you probably the same way. If I put an ad on Craigslist for admin, like I get hundreds of responses, right? And I have to have some way to sift those out.
So I start to say, well, like, did they spell something wrong in the first line of the sentence? Like you’re just out. I don’t care what your name is or what your experiences. You’re trying to find ways to whittle that stack down to who should I be talking to, right? And if you have a portfolio of what you’ve done, that separates you from probably 90% of the people they’re talking to, at least and proactively have it right? And so I think just like you when we first started, we had a community bank that we did a similar thing where we showed like our last 10 properties, how much we paid for them and what we made on it, how long we held it for.
And they were just blown away. Their first question was always, “How did you buy it for so cheap?” Right? Just a lot of community bankers . . . they don’t really understand our business, even though they’re bankers and they lend and they do a lot of real estate stuff. The way that distressed house buyers work, that was kind of foreign to some people we talked to, when we showed them that and we kind of walked them through how we get those deals. That really separated us from probably anybody else that we’re talking to.
Brandon:Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, one other thing I want to discuss also is that, you know, don’t get complacent if you get turned down on the first community bank you go to. I mean, in 2009, 2010, as an entrepreneur and businessman, I probably spent half my time buying houses and the other half in banks. I mean, it was literally I was knocking on every bank available. “This is what our portfolio has. This is what we do. Can you help us?” And raising that capital was not hard. It was very hard in that time but it’s easier now than it was back in that day for sure.
Mike:Awesome. Awesome. Well, Brandon, hey, thanks for joining us today.
Brandon:Yeah, Mike, I enjoyed it. Thanks for having me on.
Mike:Yeah. Hey, if anybody wants to get a hold of you or learn more about your business down in Houston, where should they go?
Brandon:They can shoot me an email at [email protected].
Mike:Awesome. Awesome. And we’ll add a link to your site down there too. So everybody, this is episode number 437 with Brandon Smith, out of Houston. Some great stuff here. Honestly, I think a lot of the opportunity that happens for real estate investors is to work with your family. Honestly, we just haven’t really talked about it a whole lot on the show and so it was really cool to talk to somebody else about that. Hopefully, you got something out of it.
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