Crowdfunding for Real Estate

Mike: Hey, it’s Mike Hambright on FlipNerd.com. Welcome back for another exciting expert interview, where I interview successful real estate investing experts and entrepreneurs in our industry to help you lean and grow. If you haven’t checked us out yet, please check out the all new FlipNerd.com. We’ve got a lot of great of stuff going on and the site has changed quite a bit from just a month ago. Lots of wholesale properties and vendors and folks that can help you in your business.
So today’s show though, I’m joined by Jason Fritton who is the president and CEO of the crowdfunding portal Patch of Land which lends the real estate investors and one of the largest obstacles as many of you know, that real estate investors face, is finding access to capital. And as a lot of you know there’s a lot of buzz and a lot of interest right now in crowdfunding, which is great for real estate investors. It’s introducing a lot of new capital into the market.
So today Jason is going to share with us where crowdfunding has been, where it’s going, how you can benefit and how you can get involved whether you are looking to actually borrow for properties or potentially even loan money to fund deals. So before we get started though, let’s take a moment to recognize our featured sponsors.
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Hey Jason, welcome to the show.
Jason: Hi Mike, thank you. I really appreciate it. It’s great to be here.
Mike: Yeah, yeah. I’m glad to have you here. So we’ve talked a few times over the past several months on the show about crowdfunding and it’s like a little bit like the Wild West in terms of there’s a lot that’s going on, a lot of excitement. A lot of people don’t necessarily know exactly where it’s going. I know you’re going to shed some light on it today. But it’s a really interesting space to be in right now, right?
Jason: Yeah, absolutely. It’s kind of a transformational change in the world of investment and all across the spectrum, across to all industries right now. It really is the democratization of capital formation, bringing what has traditionally been a very, very dark world of personal connections and high powered networks, online. It’s bringing all the daylight in to it. It’s very, very exciting. One of the biggest changes we’ve seen in probably the last 80 years.
Mike: Yeah, and for entrepreneurs or libertarians or whoever might like this is like “Holy cow. The government is giving people the opportunity to invest their own money where they see fit.”
Jason: Yeah, absolutely and that’s something that’s been a long time in coming, its way over due honestly. And today’s information centric world, you shouldn’t have to already be wealthy and well connected to be able to make a good personal choice of what to do with your own capital. There’s a lot of individuals out there that are very, very smart, very sophisticated, but aren’t rich already. They’re working to get there.
Mike: Right, right awesome. Well it’s exciting because I think a lot of people hear the buzz going on but they don’t really know what this is all about and we’re going to talk a little bit more about it today. Jason before we get started today, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and how you found your way in the crowdfunding which is kind of an unusual place to land.
Jason: Yeah, absolutely. So I’m a technology guy. I’ve been very privileged to hire very, very smart sophisticated real estate and finance people. But my background is in technology. Previous to this I had built $35 million a year company, working with primarily the federal government military designing and procuring secure telecommunications networks. And did well with that. But in the crash of 2008, 2009 I lost it all, almost over night, because the federal government went on their spending freeze and my one giant customer went away over night.
And so I learned a very valuable lesson back then which is redundancy of capital flow, redundancy of my customers. And I never want to get in to that situation again where I just have one giant customer. And that’s really what crowdfunding is about. It’s the power of the crowd, thousands and thousands of people coming together to contribute a small amount to make something big happen.
So it’s just a really good natural transition for me to there. I though at the time like, okay, well the power of the crowd is a real thing and it’s where everything is heading towards. What is appealing to a small business or an individual that will be very difficult for them or might be easier for a large group of people to accomplish, I thought, hey, deep down everybody just wants to feel like they own a piece of the planet, a patch of land. The real estate resonates with people.
I was back in Chicago at the time and I went to the auctions out there in Chicago and this is back in the real estate waste land of 2009, 2010. And huge sections of the city were just basically abandoned, nobody was stepping in to fund. And I went to the auctions. There were always the same 12 guys at all of the auctions, very smart, sophisticated, powerful individuals and they were buying up the $50 million properties for 500,000 for the fraction of what they’re actually worth.
And there was a property that came up that was in my neighborhood. It was nice, I really liked it. The current appraisal at the time was about $300,000 but today it’s probably worth 600,000. Minimum bid on the property was 20 grand, 20 grand for a $300,000 property and nobody bidded on it, nobody even touched it. It wasn’t worth their time.
And so I said, this is an opportunity. I went to my attorney and said this is what I want to do. I want to take this and put it online, and find investors from across the country to help me do this. And bring in local artisans and contactors, and developers, and skilled professionals and make this a good opportunity again and put a good family in there and be able to do good for our community while still showing a lucrative investment.
My attorney said, “Hey that’s a great idea. I would invest in that. But if you do it you’re going to go to jail. Its public solicitation of securities. It’s not legal,” it wasn’t at the time. But I’m a stubborn person, so I found out that Congressman [inaudible 00:06:29] and Congressman Dold, were working to cosponsor the crowdfunding exemptions, the 2012 jobs act. And I worked to light up the phones and help lobby for that. The president indicated he’s willing to sign the bill and I put together Patch of Land full time at that point, specifically for this opportunity. I think it’s one of the best opportunities for personal control of your finances and to invest in one of most lucrative asset of classes out there that we’ve had maybe ever.
Mike: Yeah, and talk a little bit about the differences of who could invest, who could basically invest as a lender to this platform, previously and where we are at now and where you see that going?
Jason: Sure. So real estate syndication has been around for a very, very, very long time. It’s just been a dark opaque, often predatory world, back room connections and hand shake deals and Excel spreadsheets. What we’re doing now is just bringing daylight in this, bringing it online to the efficiency of an e-commerce model. That’s what crowdfunding is, is allowing people that don’t previously have these types of connections, this type of network, or huge amounts of capital, to be able to come together as the whole and make something great happen.
So right now Title II has been enacted, the 2012 jobs act. And what that did is create Regulation D rule 506 C, and it created the paragraph C there of that private placement, which basically allows us to go out and publicly solicit on the internet for this type of investment without having previously known the investor. And so I can come on the radio, I can come out on FlipNerd, I can come out on TV and say “Hey, I’ve got this 11% deal or 12% deal that you should be a part of,” and now it’s legal.
The caveat of that, the trade off is, that I have to verify that my investors are accredited, which means they have a million dollars in net worth, excluding their primary residence or that they have made $200,000 a year for the past two years and are expecting to do so this year. So that’s not quite where we want crowdfunding to be yet. We’re still working with wealthy individuals, in a much more open transparent way. But it’s still wealthy individuals. The Holy Grail of this whole thing is to be able to get the every day person involved. And that’s where it’s going next.
So the FCC has approved the rules for reg A plus and that goes into effect here in June. And what that allows us to do is basically create essentially a mini IPO without all the time and cost associated with that. So for larger projects we’ll be able to offer them to unaccredited individuals, everyday folks in a completely transparent public online way. And they’ll be able to contribute and participate in some really good opportunities that they never would have had access to before without having to go through an exchange or a broker dealer or an agent somewhere.
Mike: Sure. So talk a little bit about… that’s fascinating. So what are typically, this may differ from platform to platform, but what is the smallest amount that somebody could ultimately invest in, once reg A plus is passed?
Jason: I don’t believe and I could be wrong, I apologize, I don’t believe there is any actual minimum that you can invest.
Mike: Okay, but I guess from a platform standpoint there some efficiencies that you can’t allow someone to put in a dollar and then do $200 of paperwork for that.
Jason: Right, well yes and no. I mean just to be honest with you, yeah you’re completely right, we don’t want folks putting in just a dollar just having 10 million investors into a $100,000 project.
Mike: Right.
Jason: But at the same time that’s part of our value that we bring as a technology company is that we’re automating the process of managing and tracking our investors that have investments at a per diem rate. So that theoretically it doesn’t cost us much more as a company and to have one investor or a hundred investors. But there’s going to be an upper limit.
We personally right now, are working with our accredited, we have a $5,000 minimum and that’s a small enough amount that our accredited investors feel comfortable, giving us a try without committing huge amounts of capital. But it is still allows to remain efficient. But there have been other platforms out there that only ask for $100 commitment.
And that’s likely the direction we’ll be heading in to, maybe not as low as $100. But when we start dealing with only credit investors we want to make sure we’re welcoming, and we’re open to them without requiring huge amounts of capital to get started. I think you’re likely going to see a lot of minimums in the range of $100 to $1,000 with reg A’s.
Mike: So talk about this phenomenon of one of the things that I see that’s so fascinating about this, obviously there’s the financial part, that allows only unaccredited investors to invest their money and outside of the stock market, in something that maybe they believe in or want to be a part of, which is real estate.
But then there‘s this other side that is, it’s allowing somebody to potentially invest in their neighborhood or close to home where, I mean, I’ve rehabbed hundreds of houses and there’s always the noisy neighbors that want to come in and look and they want to see what’s going on. They want to make sure that it’s going to improve value in their neighborhood. But ultimately have no control, things like that. There’s people that are just interested in doing stuff that’s close to home, where they could drive by or they just know just generally I’m reinvesting in my community.
And that’s one of the fascinating things about this is now potentially you could be sourcing investors to say “I want to do this project in this part of town and I want to do it through a platform that you can become an investor to.” I mean talk about kind of that phenomenon of being able to work with people in the community.
Jason: That’s been a very huge appeal to our investors. I’ve noticed that our investors will invest 10 times the amount 10 times as quickly in to their own communities if they’re given the option to do so. And that’s really one of our big priorities here, is to be able to reinvest in to your own neighborhoods, into your own communities and to have a voice in the development and even investors through contributing or not contributing to a particular project.
We had a couple of projects in Florida, where our Florida investors jumped all over them and here we just launched a $2 million project in Arcadia, California. We had a lot of our California investors come in and at a much higher commitment rate than they normally do for other projects because it is close to home. They can go and see it, they can take a look at it. They can feel like they’re much, much more engaged with that project just by participating in it.
On top of that, it allows us to fund projects that are maybe a little bit more creative than what we normally get funded through traditional offline lenders. So we took a beautiful church that was abandoned and we converted that into a beautiful home. And that was a particular that little likely wouldn’t have gotten funded before, but it’s been a massive success so far.
Mike: That’s awesome.
Jason: And so this online formation of capital being able to go out to individual people has really helped us get projects funded that might not have otherwise done so through a traditional means. But they are still very lucrative quality projects.
Mike: Yeah, one thing that kind of came to mind is you are getting people to participate in their community, on the other hand where is the line between the investor that’s actually doing the project and I’m kind of likening this to single family homes and I know you obviously do a lot of bigger commercial stuff and much bigger development projects and things like that. And having the person that put in as little as $5,000 knocking on the door while we’re working on there, telling my contractors they need to change the paint color and stuff like that, do you foresee any issues there?
Jason: Yeah, we haven’t had any issues of that yet. But it’s definitely something we would have to address if it came up. We make sure that we protect our developers and our borrowers, our real estate professionals as much as possible. We keep their sensitive information sensitive. That’s part of the advantages of this online crowdfunding as well, besides the fact maybe you’ve got a little bit too much attention on the individual project. But you also get to brand yourself. Some of our developers love the fact that when they do a project, I’m taking them out to 10,000 retail investors and a bunch of huge power house institutions as well that they wouldn’t have had exposure to anywhere else.
Most of our developers aren’t big enough to know the huge hedge funds of the world. But hedge funds are participating with us and I’ve got 10,000 investors across the country everywhere from dentists in Kalamazoo to financial professionals out of New York, that all of a sudden know your quality of work, your skills. In fact I’ve got a developer that we’ve 12 properties through so far. And whenever this particular developer offers a new opportunity online, it gets funded in minutes flat because the investors know them. They know that they have the ability to pull it off and to do good work.
And that type of branding, that type of reputational gain is very, very valuable. Again, on the flip side, of what you said, can be potentially true too. If I get a lot of harassment of developers from individuals, then that would be a problem. But it’s never really that’s come up to this point. We’ve done well over 100 loans now. it still is a new company.
Mike: Yeah, okay. So maybe talk a little bit about I know you obviously focus on real estate, but maybe just can you share some of your knowledge or insights on what crowdfunding is doing, because it’s not limited to real estate. I mean you could effectively invest in any business right?
Jason: That’s right and that’s where everything is going. Basically crowdfunding is going to move into any industry that needs reliable access to capital which is pretty much every industry out there. Now real estate has been one of the easiest let’s just call it the earliest adopters of this new channel of capital formation simply because it’s so easy to understand.
You’ve got a hard asset on the back and you’re not investing into something that’s amorphous or tenuous or somebody’s business concept or yogurt stand somewhere. You’ve actually got something, that’s a worst case scenario you can go throw a rock at. So it makes more sense for real estate, I think real estate is pretty much, except for potentially the oil and gas industry, the real estate has profited from crowdfunding more than pretty much every other industry combined.
But we’re seeing it all across the spectrum from student loan [inaudible 00:17:00] some other competitors to them coming out to business funding with SeedInvest and Crowdfunder to business loans and like OnDeck, consumer credit with Lending Club and Prosper every single industry, this online transparency is catching on. So you’re going to continue to see that.
Mike: It is fascinating in other industries how you have checks and balances in places because like you said, real estate is a hard asset, they generally have a short term scope as to where somebody says, it’s more like a Kickstarter campaign, “Hey I’m going to do something,” but there’s really no checks and balances in place whether they do it or they don’t or what happens?
I’ll tell you, I participated in a campaign, I don’t want to throw anybody under the bus, but it was for a little bitty product, little bitty widget. And when I went through it, I was like “Oh those are really cool, I’m going to get like 10 of them and I’m going to give them to some friends and family.” And it wasn’t a tremendous amount of money, I’ll just say it wasn’t a lot of money.
But I think it took 16 months for me to get that product and see an email saying that “Hey we’ve sent all the products to everybody.” For months I saw them as “If you haven’t received it yet, you’re in the next group.” and I thought okay, well somehow I’m in the last group. Then like a month after, saying “We’ve sent everybody everything and we’re on to the next project now” and I’m like “Well I never got my thing.” So I’m going to have to kind of hunt them down and eventually I got it.
Jason: Right.
Mike: Those were a little more of like charitable things, is like “Hey, I want to support that entrepreneurial environment. They’ve got a cool product.” But I didn’t invest in that from an investment standpoint.
Jason: Right, I think just like any investment, there’s going to be the whole range of stuff that’s just A-grade, no-brainer investment you should definitely be part of it too. Much, much more speculative and charity type of things, where if you do see a return “Hey, congratulations and good luck with it.” And that’s part of my big priority and goal.
The challenge right now is to make sure that we differentiate ourselves as highly creditable and highly reliable which we’ve been able to do so far. We’ve done as I mentioned over 100 loans so far and no losses to date. But as everybody watches this show knows, business is hard. A lot of folks that have big dreams but don’t realize exactly what it takes to get it started.
And there is always that inherent risk when you’re contributing to something to help things get going, you get to be a part of something at the very earliest stages. But there’s always that risk that maybe it doesn’t go anywhere. And I think you’ve seen a lot with the Kickstarter programs.
Mike: Yeah and that would be my concern for, this is such a great vehicle for real estate investors to raise capital and really, not that everybody will always win, but a lot of people win. This is a huge benefit, would be that… the yogurt stands of the world screw it up for the real estate investors to where… you know how the pendulum shifts back and forth for a lot of stuff in the real estate industry, to where they say, “Hey we made this all legal and everybody can do it now,” like some yogurt guy screwed up, was using the artificial Chinese blueberries. Then they say “We’re going to kill crowdfunding for everything and…” that’s why I kind of mentioned all that is you don’t want somebody else to screw it up for the real estate folks.
Jason: That does keep me up at night as well. There are folks out there…
Mike: Chinese blueberry? Chinese blueberry, is that what you [inaudible 00:20:31]?
Jason: Exactly. I don’t consider other crowdfunding to be my competition, by any means. They’re my advocates and I’m theirs. And I always tell the CEOs and the executive teams of all the other crowdfunding companies out there, real estate otherwise, “Hey of you need some insight into what we’ve gone through, please give me a call,” because honestly that’s the big thing. Is that we don’t want too many things to blow up and have some legislative actions, step in and say, “Hey, we’re going to limit this for everybody because somebody screwed up.”
That being said, the wisdom of the crowd is a real thing. It is a tangible thing. And become much less dangerous than what honestly we’re initially expecting, simply because, when you expose an idea or a concept or a business plan to 10,000 people or a million people, you’re going to get some good words of wisdom out of that, through that crowd. And they’re very, very good at ferreting out the weaknesses of a particular plan.
So going back to Kickstarter, there’s been some several high profile failures. But overall they’ve got a pretty good track record. And we had a great one that the securities world in crowdfunding investment has had a good track record so far and we want to keep it that way.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely. So talk a little bit about, for the person that’s lending on a deal, effectively maybe kind of boil this down to like kindergarten level. So basically the people are funding a fractional share of a project. is that right?
Jason: That’s right, yeah. So they can come on to a platform, do their own due diligence and then review their due diligence the platform makes available. For example, on our site we make sure we put all of our appraisals, and construction budgets, and the market information, even school system reports up online, so people can see how it’s looking. But every investor should do their own due diligence as well.
Look at what’s available, make sure you make a smart decision. And then they can invest at the minimum if they want to, all they way to the entire deal if they feel that confident about it. We always recommend that you diversify. If you’ve got $50,000 to invest, it’s better to take that and put $10,000 across 5 deals, or $5,000 across 10 deals rather than just take the entire chunk because then if something does go wrong, a project does go sideways and they inevitably will, hopefully not a lot, but they inevitably will just by the numbers we’re doing alone.
You are diversifying. That way if it takes a while for the, let’s just say the property to finally get liquidated or whatever happen to get your money back, that you still have a good performance on your other assets.
So we encourage our investors to diversify and then most crowdfunding platforms make it very, very easy. On ours, you can invest in two minute flat from your couch in your pajamas on your mobile phone, if you want to. Sign all the documents online, pull the money from your account online. Then you’ve got a valuable real estate investment.
Mike: Yeah, that’s great. And the standard, I know every platform is probably a little bit different, the standard is that investors that are coming in are looking at some sort of promised rate of return. Is that typically how it works?
Jason: That’s right, yeah. So just with the traditional investment, you have your online prospectus where you’re expecting a particular estimated rate of return. Again, these are investments. So those rates of returns are not guaranteed. We focus completely on the debt sign. We write loans. So we’re up on the capital stack. We have a first position lean on the property and personal guarantees. So we tend to be, well, I don’t want to say by any means safer or more secure, but we’re going to be the first to get paid off when things go bad, if things go bad. And we’re very careful to make sure that we only put quality on the platform.
And then we can be very upfront about a predictable rate of return. Here is the rate that we’ve negotiated in this particular loan. This is what is you can expect at your pro rata, per diem amount. But if it’s a 10% rate or 11% rate or 12% rate, you’re getting that 10 or 11, 12% regardless of whether you put in 5,000 or 50,000 or 500,000.
Mike: Sure.
Jason: That can be valuable.
Mike: And are those for folks that invest, is that paid monthly, or is that paid at the end of the project or how is that usually paid out?
Jason: Generally it’s paid monthly. So to our developers, our real estate professionals, we offer interest only, no pre penalty loans that are paid monthly. They’re not amortized. And so for an investor into one of those loans, they will get paid back monthly. So let’s just say it’s a 12% loan, they will get paid if almost basically a percent a month and then they will get their principal back at the end of the loan.
Mike: So we talked a little bit about reg A plus which is coming up here, and where do you see things going in the next year or two? And then even like way down the line, if you see, “In years to come we see this big opportunity potentially coming,” but where are things going from here?
Jason: Sure. So I see this entire industry growing up and becoming much more sophisticated. I mean we originally, in our side, built a strong niche just these short time value ad loans for flippers. Now we’re moving in a long term and rental portfolios, and landlord loans, and mez, and gap funding and even 35 year opportunities as well. The entire industry is going to follow that trajectory. We’re going to start taking a look at liquidity options for our investors. We’re going to take a look at secondary securitization offers.
Overall everything is just going to grow up, become much, much more sophisticated. It’s not going to become crowdfunding anymore. It’s just going to be called funding. That’s the way things are being done. You’re going to start seeing some of the big heavy hitters, the big power players coming on board and start participating. We’re already getting a lot of offers for some of the big, big institutional players to fund our opportunities.
You’re going to see a lot more capital available for some specialized projects. So let’s just say, student housing, green conversions, things like that, that may have been difficult to find access to capital before, now it’s going to be fairly easier and straight forward. Just go online and find that funding if you have a quality product. And it’s going to spread, as we mentioned before, to every industry. And I think there’s going to be some new legal definitions around what we’re able to do and what we’re not able to do. But overall I think it’s going to be more permissive than it is today, rather then the [last].
Mike: Do you see over time, you can kind of see in terms of oversights on this kind of industry, you could kind of see things like… rather than me kind of hypothesize about where I want to go, it sounds like some of the larger institutional players that are traditional lenders, they’re probably not feeling a lot of pain right now from folks that are moving to crowdfunding platforms, but they will.
And so from there, they’ll either have to develop their own similar platforms or start playing or I guess potentially acquire some of the platforms or just participate. And at some point do you see, as more and more funding in platforms pop up that are niche focused and stuff like that, some sort of ability to… from a consumer stand point I can see those platforms being rated. Like you’re safer probably here, they’re A-rated. This guy is C-rated but he’s offering higher rates. I mean, where do you see things going from a standpoint of the different platforms?
Jason: We’re going to see a lot of mergers and consolidations. We’ve already had several offers ourselves on our side. We’re still just a new company. This year I believe personally, my personal opinion is that we’re going to see a lot of consolidation this year amongst even some of the bigger players. Some of the more successful niche players are going to get snapped up as well. As you mention big power players, I liken them to the Titanic. That probably sends a little bit overly dramatic, but they’re so big, they can’t change direction in time without really cannibalizing different parts of their own company.
So they’re likely going to acquire companies like ours or take controlling interests within them. And that’s going to be very likely here. As far as rating is concerned, we’re already starting to see that. You see CrowdDD out there run by one of the more preeminent attorneys here in crowdfunding right now, already starting to rate different opportunities in different platforms as well. And that’s going to become more institutionalized, more sophisticated as we move forward as well. Credibility and your loan tape, or your record is going to be very, very important moving forward.
Mike: Yeah, yeah, interesting.
Jason: Which as it should be.
Mike: Yeah, yeah. So maybe you could take a minute to tell people like how they can get involved. If they want to lend or they want to borrow, how do they get started?
Jason: So do your research, honestly to start with. All the platforms out there have made it as easy as possible. You can check us out on patchofland.com P-A-T-C-H-O-F-L-A-N-D dot com. And we’ve made the process very, very simple to get started either for a potential real estate developer, a borrower, or for an interested investor for those particular projects. You can sign up completely online, sign up using Facebook if you want to. Then you can go in and review all the opportunities.
If you want to make a commitment, you can do so just a couple of minutes flat. If you’re looking for funding for your project, the application is very, very simple and straightforward and we can fund as little as five days flat. As so we’ve been able to make it very, very easy. And there’s a lot of other platforms as well, there’s the equity versus debt and platforms that play on both the equity and debt side, depending upon what your project is actually looking for.
And I generally tell interested real estate professionals, developers be a little bit more visual. In the past you probably just had a quick Excel spreadsheet to talk about the numbers and so. Online investors are a bit of a different breed. They want to get their brain wrapped around what the project actually is, they want to see pictures, or videos or architectural sketches or whatever that you can show to make them feel like they really have a good connection to that part.
Mike: Yeah, it’s how to tell a story a little bit more.
Jason: Exactly once they feel like they understand it, they’ll invest and you’ll have a good reliable source of capital.
Mike: Great. So Jason if folks want to learn about how to get involved, where should they go?
Jason: So I encourage people to check us out at patchofland.com, P-A-T-C-H-O-F-L-A-N-D dot com and there’s an 800 number that’s right at the top, its 888-959-1465. If you want to reach out and that’s one of our biggest values is transparency and you’ll always get me on the phone. You can get any one of my executive staff on the phone, from my head of underwriting to my loan officers to my general council and CFO if you want to. We’re very happy to speak with you and let you know what exactly this new world of crowdfunding is and how we can help.
Mike: Yeah, thanks for being a frontrunner in this space. It’s a really interesting space and it’s only going to help real estate investors. I mean as you talked about at the beginning of the show, one of the biggest challenges that investors face has been capital and that’s starting to change.
Jason: It is changing and it’s changing quickly and it’s my pleasure Mike, I really appreciate the opportunity.
Mike: Great. Thanks a lot for your time Jason. I appreciate it.
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