Full Service Wholesaling

Mike: Welcome to the FlipNerd.com podcast. This is your host, Mike Hambright. On this show, I will introduce you to VIPs in the real estate investing industry as well as other interesting entrepreneurs whose stories and experiences can help you take your business to the next level. We have three new shows each week, which are available in the iTunes store, or by visiting FlipNerd.com.
So without further ado, let’s get started.
Hey, it’s Mike Hambright with FlipNerd.com. Welcome back for another exciting VIP interview, where I interview some of the most successful real estate investing experts and entrepreneurs in the industry to help you learn and grow.
Today, I’m joined by Nate Armstrong, a turnkey property provider that operates in multiple states. In addition to learning more about Nate and his company, Calhoun Ventures, and Nate’s turnkey model, we’re also going to talk about full-service wholesaling.
Now, many wholesalers simply post properties to other investors and essentially throw them over the fence to somebody else, close on the deal, and be done with it, but Nate’s going to discuss a model where he does a lot more hand-holding for customers that need it in what we’re going to call a full-service wholesaling model.
Before we get started though, let’s take a moment to recognize our featured sponsors.

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Please note, the views and opinions expressed by the individuals in this program do not necessarily reflect those of FlipNerd.com or any of its partners, advertisers or affiliates. Please consult professionals before making any investment or tax decisions as real estate investing can be risky.

Hey Nate, welcome to the show.

Nate: Hey, Mike, how’s it going?

Mike: Good, good. Thanks for being here today.

Nate: Yeah, definitely. Thanks for having me.

Mike: Awesome. Well, I say this to a lot of folks, like many of our guests we have on the show, you came highly recommended from another guest that we had on recently, and so I know you’ve got a lot of great experiences and a good story to share.

Nate: I appreciate you making some time for me. I’ll give you my quick story, but feel free to jump in with any questions that you might have.

Mike: All right.

Nate: I’m from Minneapolis, Minnesota; was raised in Northern Minnesota. After college, I followed the wisdom of mom and dad, which was go to school and get a good job. So I got the job after college; I started working for the Target Corporation. I spent about four years with them, and recognized that every six to nine months, I would get a promotion and my job title would get fancier, but my pay would only go up by about maybe a millimeter or so and responsibilities would double. So I started looking for other opportunities.
I came across real estate in 2007. By November of 2007, I started flipping houses on my own on the weekends. This was at a time in the market, especially in Minneapolis, where the economy was starting to crash and real estate values were starting to go down, and I went for it anyways. I didn’t really know any better, so I just decided I wanted to go for it.
I did a few houses on my own, and then eventually just decided I was going to resign from Target, and interestingly – I share this story for a reason – interestingly, when I resigned at Target, I handed my boss my typed-up resignation letter, and he opens it and he looks at me and he says, well, Nate, we don’t want you to go, but if you are going to go, then how do I do real estate with you?
And this light bulb went on, and I said okay, well, how can I do this? So I ended up leaving, and my boss from Target, Geoff Stokes, he’s still a buyer of mine today. He was my first buyer. I started doing deals for him, and then I started doing deals for my dentist, and then it just kind of expanded from there.

Mike: So talk a little about – I’m always interested to hear you had an interest in real estate. How did that come about? Is it something you’d had for a long time and just never acted on?

Nate: The era of the mid-2000s, so 2003 through 2007 was the era of` Flip That House. Every other TV show was on, and I bet you I watched almost every single one of them during that time; Richard, with his Trademark Properties, the Montelongo brothers, all of those people. I watched them all because I was just addicted to it, so that kind of fell naturally on me that I just wanted to do that.
Prior to that, during college, I paid my way through school by running a painting business. I hired a bunch of my friends, and we painted houses all summer long and that afforded me to be able to pay for school. So I already had the entrepreneurial background, and then after being at Target for four years and recognizing that it was going to take a really, really long time to get to where I wanted to be in life, I just said, well, what else can I do?

Mike: What general role were you in at Target?

Nate: I started off in a management-trainee position, then got bumped up to a Manager, and then got bumped up to a Group Leader. My last position with Target, they actually put me in charge of facility operations. So as a fairly young guy, only a few years out of school, I was in charge of a multi-million dollar capital expenditure budget where I got to hire contractors to build stuff for Target. So I was building bathrooms, offices, all that kind of stuff, inside of facilities in a couple different areas around the country.

Mike: I don’t know if you know, my background is almost all retail as well, for some other large retailers, and I think of it often and I use it as an example, because it’s so much of my background. I think retail is a very natural fit to real estate investing. I mean, most of my background was more in the merchant side of the business, but you’re effectively sourcing product at a cheap price and adding value somehow, and marking it up. There’s a lot of different, even from a retail storefront perspective, there’s so many natural fits to providing good customer service and things like that. So yeah, that’s fascinating.

Nate: Absolutely. One of the things that I learned at Target was leadership. I mean, they’re one of the better companies in the world that’s built good teams, and they execute under the principles that you just described. I don’t regret my time there at all. If I could do it all over again, I would do it the exact same way. It was just a time for me to make a leap, and I did.

Mike: I know you operate a turnkey model now, but it sounds like – my experience is that a lot of people that are in turnkey evolved to that model over time, one way or another. It sounds like you kind of came out of the gate with a model very similar to maybe what you’re doing today.

Nate: Yeah, I pretty much did. I mean, I did my handful of deals on my own, completely independent, and I did that by scraping together a little tiny bit of cash that I had, I did a cash advance on a credit card to pay for a rehab, and used a bank loan to buy a house. So I scraped together my first few deals on my own, and then when my boss said, hey, can you do this for me, too, this big light bulb went off and I said, wow, I can do this without my own money? Yes, this is great.
Then the other thing that evolved from that is I realized that I could do it on my own and I could pull together my resources to do it, but when I started doing it for other people, I recognized that I benefited, and here’s how – I’ll give you a couple of examples.
So, right now, today, fast-forward from 2007 to 2014, now we have some months where we’ll literally close on 60 houses in one month, so our volume has exponentially increased.
But our prices have decreased overall on renovations. A couple of examples: A/C units; I just put in an A/C unit last Friday. I had one go down in one of our Kansas City houses, and I did it for $1,400, delivered and installed. Back in 2007, I was paying $3,000, maybe even $3,500, just like everybody else. But with our volume, I’ve learned that our prices can drop.
Water heaters, we’re paying $350; carpet delivered and installed, we’re paying $1.60 per square foot, and it’s a decent carpet with an eight-pound pad underneath it. So the more houses that I did for other people, the more it benefited me on my personal houses.

Mike: What’s interesting, too, what a lot of folks don’t realize until you get into the volume businesses, is that, you know, time is money, obviously, and a lot of what you start to get when you start to do volume is just much better service from contractors. That tends to have a lot of opportunities to be pretty poor quality. A lot of contractors that we typically work with spend half of their time looking for work or bidding jobs that they may never get, and I think when they start to realize that, wow, if I work with you, I can have fairly steady business all the time, then they start to price some of that in.

Nate: Exactly. That’s a selling proposition, too. If you get the contractor to come down to your level in price, your level, your quality, your level of service as well, but if you get them to perform at that level consistently, then when you sit down with your buyers, it’s an easy way to say, hey look, if you did this project on your own, the retail price is going to be up here. If you do it through our team, if you buy this wholesale deal from us and we plug in our contractor, you’re going to get the renovation done down here. So that’s a really good selling service as well.

Mike: I definitely look forward to talking more about full-service wholesaling and how you work with customers to provide a lot more value than just sourcing the initial deal, which is what a lot of wholesalers do. But before we go there, tell us a little bit about your company and how it’s evolved and how you operate today. And before we even start with that, maybe explain for folks that may have heard the term a number of times, turnkey rental provider, and just explain a little bit about what that means to you.

Nate: So, a turnkey rental provider is literally taking a distressed property, fixing it up – and not just splashing paint on the wall and carpet on the floor, but going in there and finding all the hazards and correcting things like smoke detectors that need to be hard-wired to meet modern code or CO detectors, hand-rails getting returns to the walls, really going through houses top to bottom and making sure that they’re bullet-proof for a rental.
Once you do that, then basically you partner with a good property management company to screen tenants and find good, high-quality tenants. When I say screen, I don’t mean, hey, quick, do this application and then you can move into the house, I mean check income; is income three times the monthly rent or greater. We actually just bumped our income criteria up to 3.5 times monthly rent. So what that means is if the rent is $1,000 per month, the minimum income that we would have ever accepted was $3,000, and now we’re at $3,500.
Checking for criminal, UD, anything like that on their record, and then also checking their credit score and their references. So full renovation, full service screening of the tenants and then placement of the tenants, and then we hand over these properties that are totally renovated with screened tenants, with an income-producing tenant in there, we hand that over to our end buyer.

Mike: And are you taking possession, or are you assigning these and then providing those services?

Nate: We do both. So there’s some nuances that are important on both equations. My preferred model that I do with most people that are just coming into the door brand-new to us is I own it all the way through until it’s tenanted, and then I market it for sale.
Now, with some of our clients that we’ve known for a while that we have a relationship with, they’re comfortable buying it on the front side while it’s distressed, while it’s broken, because they know from our historical track record that we’re going to deliver a good product.

Mike: Okay. Talk a little bit about why you said your preferred model is to take ownership, because my hunch would have been that your preferred model is to not take ownership, which adds more cost and more risk for your side, but talk a little bit about why that’s preferred from your perspective.

Nate: So every state is a little bit different, but when you’re contracting for other people – let’s say you decide you want to come to Minnesota and buy a house from us that’s broken and we’re going to fix it for you and then place tenants and then hand it over. To represent you as a contractor, in the state of Minnesota, I would have to be a licensed general contractor to manage your contractors for you.

Mike: I see.

Nate: And so other states that we work in, like Missouri, don’t have that law. But it kind of varies region by region.
In a case like that, it’s much better for me just to buy it, to own it, and then to hand it over to you once it’s totally done. I can do the contracting on my own house.

Mike: Right. Talk a little bit about financing for your buyers. I know a number of folks that essentially teach them how to use, you know, Fannie and Freddie loans for their first 4 to 10 properties. It gets challenging after that. Do you play a role in helping them get financing to be able to essentially help you monetize the deal?

Nate: I’m going to break that question up into two sections. I’m going to break it up into how I can finance this, which will translate to anybody else out there listening on how they can do it, and then also how we help our buyers do it.

Mike: Okay.

Nate: First thing is, we never go to the big banks that do Fannie and Freddie loans. Why? Because they have too much red tape and too many restrictions. We go to the small, local community banks. And if you’re in a market that’s already started to recover, which most markets have, then it’s really easy to get bank financing again. Even the folks that maybe got turned down a year ago, it’s time to go back to those same banks and knock on the door and see if they’re lending yet.
It’s interesting, in 2007, 2008, when I was first getting started, I had my really good job at Target and then I resigned, so the banks that were giving me loans before I resigned said, hey, we’re not giving you any more loans now that you’ve resigned from your job. So I kind of had to figure stuff out. So what I figured out is don’t go to the big banks, go to the small banks, go to the credit unions. A lot of the credit unions actually get incentives for putting money into their community, so they’re motivated to help restore some of the vacant houses that are out there and they’re motivated to get money on the street to qualified borrowers.
So what we do is we partner with the local credit unions to help pick up the properties. I get what’s called a construction loan, and I usually get about 75% loan-to-value, so whatever the house is worth when it’s all fixed up, they’ll give me about 75% of that, and then whatever cash beyond that 75% mark, I have to put that in myself. So I’ll put that in.
Sometimes what I’ll do – I usually use my own cash on some of those things, but sometimes what I’ll do is I’ll just partner with other investors in town, and I’ll say, hey, do you want to fund part of a rehab, and I’ll have them put up a little tiny bit of capital that’s needed to finish the deal.
So that’s how I do it on my side. And then what I do for the buyers is I go back to those same banks and I say, hey, can you do a conventional loan for my buyer? Most of my buyers – sometimes they’re not even in real estate full time; doctors, dentists, et cetera, but the bank feels totally comfortable lending on an asset that’s totally fixed for people that aren’t even in the business.

Mike: What’s interesting from a lot of experiences that I have is that the banks don’t want that money back. They want to keep that money out and keep it working.

Nate: My last trip back to Minneapolis – so, 2007, 2008, I was begging banks for money, and now, my last trip back to Minneapolis just three or four weeks ago, I actually had two different bankers texting me and calling me begging to sit down. I finally just answered the call on one of them and I said, hey, I’m super busy, I don’t have time to have lunch, I’m sorry, what’s up, and then he told me, he’s like, well, Nate, we want to get more money on the street. Can you borrow some more or can you refer some more of your buyers to us so we can get some cash out there? It’s like, wow, that’s a seven-year difference, but that’s the reality. Now, lenders are saying, gosh, the market is coming back; we want to be part of this.

Mike: Right. I’ve had that same experience.
So, from your turnkey model perspective, let’s go into the property management side of that. Are you actively managing on their behalf, or do you outsource that?

Nate: We hire local property managers to do everything. I’m not a licensed property manager in any state that we work in, so what we do is we go in and find the best property managers in the area, and then we set our clients up with them.

Mike: Okay. And what’s always interesting to hear from people that are running a turnkey model is your kind of liability or responsibility if, for example, you put a tenant in there, you thought it was a great tenant, and they, you know, two months later, they stop paying rent, or, you thought the HVAC system was great, it was working fine, you had it tested and you had a maintenance call on it, and then it goes bad. How do you deal with those issues that are kind of unknowns when you’re selling to customers that you hope are repeat customers?

Nate: That’s a great question. So, two things. Number one, before we purchase a house, we do a pre-inspection. What that means to us is that we send our licensed inspector in – and yes, I still use licensed inspectors on the houses that we buy. I have 500-plus houses under my belt, but I still like to have a third-party opinion of what the mechanicals look like and what the structure looks like.
So they go in and they make a list for us of everything that they find wrong with it, and then from that list that the inspector makes, I get my contractors to bid it out. So then we close on the deal, we do the renovations based on the list of stuff that the inspector wrote and the contractors bid on. Following all of the renovations, I send the same inspector back into the house to do a post-inspection. So they’ll go through the whole property top to bottom, test the hot water, test the mechanicals, plug in the little tester into all the outlets, test the GFIs, so they’re doing another home inspection. Then what I do with that home inspection is I hand it off to our buyer and say, hey, you can do your own inspection if you want. Just so you know, I like to check our guys’ work too, so here’s the inspection report.
We have a target frame. Our target timeline for all of these renovations is that they should last about five years or more, and what that means to us on a turnkey house is that mechanicals, roof, major things should go for five-plus years. So if we think it’s going to fail in the next five years, we rip it out and replace it.
So, an example of that is you’ve got a 17-year old furnace. It might still be running, but the average lifespan of a furnace is 15 to 20 years. That would not qualify for lasting five-plus years, so we would have just replaced it anyway so that the new buyer doesn’t have to worry about it.

Mike: Right. And of course, you’re just trying to bake those things into your initial offer to make sure you’ve bought the property right in the first place, right?

Nate: Exactly. And then kind of the second part of your question is, well, what do we do if the unknown happens? And they still do; 1 out of 10 houses, you think you did everything right, and you’ll have an 11-year old furnace that junks out on you, and you say, oh, shoot.
Well, that comes down to relationship. I mean, when you have a client that’s coming in and trusting you to be a full-service turnkey provider, you have to make a decision. You have to say, well gosh, can I afford to absorb this and then still make the client happy and keep moving forward, or, was I so tight on this deal that I have to have a conversation with them and just be honest? In every situation that we’ve done, 9 out of 10 times we’re just replacing it for the client just to make sure that they’re happy, especially if it’s something that our rehab team should have caught. So if it’s something they should have caught, that’s totally on us.
If it’s something that’s totally unforeseen, then we call our client back and we be very honest with them and say, hey, look, we could not have predicted this. Both inspection reports said that it was good. I’ll tell you what, we can get it done for you at cost, and our cost is oftentimes 60% of retail price. So when they hear that word, they’re happy just in and of itself.

Mike: Yeah. So aside from issues like that, once you sell a property and you hand it off, do you have a role at all in anything from an ongoing perspective?

Nate: We like to follow-up with our property managers, particularly for the first 30 days. If there’s any maintenance calls, I like our team to handle them.
I’ll give you an example of what the most common maintenance call is on move-in weekend: plumbing things. Even though we run the hot water, we make sure the hot-water heater is lit, we teach the tenant how to run the circuit panel and teach them all the little things of the house, there always seems to be something when you put a lot of pressure on the plumbing. You’re running the washer, dishwasher and shower at the same time, and then all of a sudden, you see something that you didn’t see during the entire renovation. We send our team out there for free because that’s a warranty call. If I had my plumber in there and I spent $3,000 with the plumber, he’s going back out there and fixing whatever is wrong with it.

Mike: Right.

Nate: So the first month we keep a close eye on maintenance calls, and then after that, our clients always keep in touch with us, because our goal is not to sell somebody one house. Our goal is six-plus houses per year, and almost every single one of our clients does that, so we want to make sure that they’re still having a good experience.

Mike: Yeah.

Nate: I had a house, 1348 3rd St. in St. Paul, Minnesota, that we had sold as a package to a hedge fund, and the tenant, he had been with me for two years, and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, when the property transitioned over, he left in the middle of the night, and of course, he left the place kind of beat-up. So without my client even knowing – this is after the sale had been complete – I sent in our rehab crew. We put in new carpet, we painted the place, made it look nice and fresh, and then we leased it out for him. By the time that he had even caught wind of it, it was already leased. He was like, wow, you didn’t have to do that. But here’s what happened immediately after that – and he didn’t ask for it, we just did it anyways – he came back and he’s probably bought 70 houses from us since.

Mike: Wow.

Nate: We weren’t expecting that either, but it just kind of happens when you take care of people, then they’re going to naturally want to work with you more.

Mike: There’s no doubt about it, yeah. Your customers that you sell to now, I know you operate in several different states, do they tend to say, hey, I want to buy everything in this one market, or do you have people that are getting comfortable with buying properties in lots of different markets?

Nate: Three years ago, I would have said people really like to stay in their own backyard or their own comfort area, but today, people are coming in with an open mind.
I’ll give you an example. So, Minneapolis, Minnesota, three years ago, Minneapolis was kind of in the bottom of the trough. We all know that real estate goes up, comes down, and every 7 to 10 years, we have some sort of adjustment in values. Minneapolis was in the middle of the trough three or four years ago, and it’s come up a lot since then. We actually went through a two-year stretch where we had a 20%-plus gain in the market, and that’s huge. I mean, that’s a percent-plus per month.

Mike: Right.

Nate: So some of the buyers that we had sold a lot of houses to in Minnesota, they kept saying, well gosh, this deal isn’t as good as the one you gave me two years ago. So that opened up a conversation of, well, did you know that we also operate in Kansas City, Missouri? And then when we explained that it’s the same process that we’ve been doing in Minneapolis, I had a lot of people that said, okay, great. Start showing me Kansas City, Missouri. So we’ve taken a lot of people that were originally investing in Minnesota that are now buying from us in Missouri.

Mike: That’s great. So let’s kind of go into talking about a full-service wholesaling model. What’s interesting about this is I think most people that wholesale, there’s a couple reasons why they do it, one of which is definitely ease. And that’s because they tend to just, you know, get a property at X price and market it to folks.
I mean, I’ll tell you, I’ve wholesaled, I don’t know, 100, 150 houses, generally assignments, and most of the people that have bought from me I’ve never met. It was usually done very quickly, I usually had an administrative assistant that was helping facilitate it, and we never focused on building relationships. I rehab a lot too, so we really kind of spent our time rehabbing for ourselves and reselling, and the wholesaling was just an easy path to kind of keep some cash flow coming in and do what we need to do there.
But we really hadn’t put much thought into – I mean, of course if somebody had a problem, I was always there, but we weren’t trying to provide a service if you will, other than, we acquired a house, who wants it, type mentality, which I think is pretty common.
So talk a little bit about why it may make sense to provide a higher level of service when you’re wholesaling.

Nate: Yeah, great question, Mike. And don’t get me wrong, I still love to do my quick in-and-out deals, too. If I can assign the contract and get paid up front and not have to do the renovation, I will do that all day long.
But what we’ve found is that there’s a new wave of buyers entering the market right now. The market has gone through a correction, values are starting to come up, and now you have all these people that are looking at – let’s say they’ve been invested in stocks heavily for the last seven years. They’ve had a really good run, particularly in the last two years, but if you look at stock values, not to be corny with my wave example here, but all asset classes go up and down. Stocks have been on a run now for a long time, and they’re probably due for a market correction at some point, maybe next year, et cetera. Well, I have folks that – one of my buyers, he’s a missionary in China, and he rode the Chinese real estate market all the way up here, and like, it’s on the edge right now.

Mike: Yeah.

Nate: So two years ago, he pulled all of his money out of China and he sent it back to me to start buying duplexes for cash flow. So with that wave of buyers like this gentleman, his name is Mark, he’s a missionary in China. He doesn’t have time to go out and hunt for deals here, nor does he have time to go out and hunt for contractors and property management. So when he heard about us doing totally turnkey, he said, yeah, sign me up, I’m in. And then we’re able to back it up with good deals, good service, et cetera. I’ve picked up more doctors and more dentists in the last two years than I ever have in the seven-plus years I’ve been doing this.
We want to be equipped for that kind of buyer. That’s why full servicing comes into play.

Mike: Yeah, and I’m not sure if you have specific numbers to share, but clearly, when you provide more service like that, you get repeat customers, but also I assume you’re able to charge a premium for that?

Nate: Typically, on a wholesale deal like that – and I’m just generalizing this – on some of our smaller, middle-America, three-bedroom, two-bath, ranch-style houses, we can usually make about $10,000 to do something like that. But there’s a lot of costs that come into it, too. I mean, you’ve got your team on the ground, we have a project manager that is full-time on our salary running contractors, and we’ve got people that are doing the acquisition side of the business, so there’s costs to it too. Whereas on most of our quick assignments of contracts, we’re making $3,000 to $5,000.

Mike: Okay. And you’re doing this not just for rental properties, you’re actually doing some fix-and-flip stuff on the behalf of other people as well, is that right?

Nate: Yes. I’d say two-thirds are going rental, and then about one-third are going fix-and-flip. There’s a market that’s coming back for fix-and-flip as well, especially in cities that we’re working in that have started to recover. If they’re still in the middle of the trough, it’s a little bit more nerve-wracking, but for the cities that are going up in value right now, fix-and-flips are very much alive.

Mike: And if you’re doing fix-and-flips on the behalf of somebody else, are you initially assigning it to them, and then separately you’re helping to remodel, or are you taking ownership of those as well?

Nate: In a state that has that red tape that we talked about earlier, what we do – this is kind of tricky, you’ll want to sit down and partner with your – I’m not an attorney, but partner with your own attorney. What we do is we do a double-close, and we sell it to the buyer as-is. The contract straight up says as-is, but on the double-close, we add in enough money for us to profit and for the renovation. Then what we do with that cash is it goes into escrow, and then our contractor draws from the escrow account based on our on-site inspections. So essentially, we’re not managing the rehab for them formally on paper, we sold them an as-is property, but the buyer ultimately knows that we are the ones that are driving the bus, basically.

Mike: So there’s definitely a great case there for providing more service. Now, one of the things that comes with providing great service is more business, which sounds great. I presume the bottleneck for your business often is finding enough deals. Is that fair to say?

Nate: Yeah, I mean, it always comes in waves. There’s always a bottleneck, and then we fix that one, and then it comes into another spot in the business. This year particularly, it has gotten a little bit thinner out there, particularly if you’re trying to work the MLS hard. The MLS has gotten a lot of new people that are walking into their realtor’s office saying, hey, give me deals, so they’re overpaying for stuff.

Mike: Right.

Nate: What we did this year to combat that is we actually launched a TV commercial. And the TV commercial, it’s just a simple, ‘We buy houses’ message, and that message has driven home a lot of leads for us, so working non-MLS channels harder than we ever have before.

Mike: So for folks that are interested in learning more about what you’re doing and your company, where should they go to learn more?

Nate: Please check us out at our webpage at calhounventures.com

Mike: Okay. And we’ll add a link for that down below. Anything else you want to add for talking about the turnkey model for folks that maybe aren’t familiar with it that may be interested in investing with you or people like you, what the opportunity is there?

Nate: Yeah, definitely. If you’re sitting on the sidelines saying, hey, how do I get in, is this full-service thing too much for me, then I would advise finding somebody in your area that does services like ours and partner up with them if they’re a good, reputable company. You can do a lot of business with those folks, like the doctors and the dentists and such, that are entering the market now that have cash but don’t have time, so it’s a good window to get in. And then if you want to look at partnering with us, check us out on our web page; we’re happy to partner with people in deals. We treat it the same as any other assignment, a contract fee or a bird-dog fee or a wholesale fee.

Mike: Okay, awesome. We’ll have links down below for anybody that wants to learn more.
Nate, thanks so much for your time today; appreciate the lesson. You’re doing some pretty interesting stuff there.

Nate: Thanks, Mike. We’ll catch you later.

Mike: All right. Have a great day.

Nate: Thanks.

Mike: Thanks for joining us on today’s FlipNerd.com podcast. To listen to more of our shows and hear from incredible guests, please access all of our podcasts in the iTunes store. You can also watch the video versions of our shows by visiting us at FlipNerd.com.