Investing for Your Children’s Education and Your Health

Mike: Hey everyone, it’s Mike Hambright with FlipNerd.com. Welcome back for another exciting Expert Interview, where I interview great guests from across the real estate industry to help you learn and hopefully inspire you. Today is going to be a great show.
Just another quick reminder of the upcoming REI Power Summit. By the time you’re hearing this it’s about to start, if you’re hearing it when we first publish it. So it’s going to be probably one of the largest online real estate investing events ever. It’s completely virtual so you can watch it from anywhere, you get access to it for up to 12 months after the event starts. And there’s just a lot of great speakers, over 50 speakers so far and a number of great vendors. In fact my guest on the show today is one of our sponsors and vendors of the show. So check out reipowersummit.com.
For today’s show, I’m excited to have Clay Malcolm from New Direction IRA with me. Clay’s a wealth of knowledge using self directed accounts as a real estate investor and how that benefits us as investors. If you’re an avid listener of the show, you’ve likely heard us talk to other self-directed folks in the past about self-directed accounts, and we’re always trying to bring you something new.
To captivate your mind today, we’re going to talk about two very interesting and powerful topics, so I hope you stick with us here. Coverdell accounts and HSA accounts and how they can be used as a dramatic tool for a real estate investor. How do you use real estate to dramatically boost savings for your children’s education account, which is a Coverdell account, we’re going to talk about. And also how to use real estate to pay for your own health care and mitigate a lot of those costs, and we all know where those costs are going.
So those are some really interesting vehicles you can use to help offset the cost of those and really some pretty incredible tax advantages for those as well. Pretty exciting stuff if you’re a nerd like me. Before we get started with Clay, let’s take just a moment to recognize our featured sponsors.
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Please note, the views and opinions expressed by the individuals in this program do not necessarily reflect those of FlipNerd.com or any of its partners, advertisers or affiliates. Please consult professionals before making any investment or tax decisions, as real estate investing can be risky.
Hey Clay, welcome to the show.
Clay: Hey, glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Mike: I caught myself when I was saying that “this is exciting stuff” knowing that there’s some people that are like “That sounds horrible. That’s like nails on a chalkboard.” But I tend to geek out about this stuff. When you understand the power of it and the importance of it, then stuff like mitigating taxes and building your wealth and stuff is exciting to me, so maybe I’m unusual. But I’m glad that we’re going to talk about it today and I know you like these topics as well.
Clay: Yeah, you and I will be on the same plane. There’s power there.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Well hey, before we get started talking about these super exciting topics, why don’t you just take a moment to tell us a little bit more about you and what you do.
Clay: Sure. Well I actually started in the self-directed custodial account business almost five years ago and a lot of it had to do with my interest in it. I grew up in a space where I contributed to an IRA or a 401(k), almost mindlessly and didn’t know that it could buy alternative assets and the power that that compounding effect of the tax deferral could have. Even the way to put it into my financial strategy, it wasn’t that I couldn’t understand it, it was just that I didn’t know.
One of the things that has really been exciting for me about being in a new direction and being around a bunch of people who are smart and thinking about something that is cutting edge and using their own expertise. Because first of all, I learn a lot, but also I get to open that avenue up to other people and I’m sure that you’ve experienced this. It’s a really fun feeling when the lightbulb goes on and somebody’s like, “Okay, well I can put my knowledge of this together with this and boom, I’ve got a whole new system.” It’s been really fun.
Mike: Yeah, it’s great. And this is one of those spaces too where they were intended to be used one way, and then there’s people that have the knowledge of real estate and the knowledge of these accounts as well. And say “Well wow, if you use this as a vehicle to do this, if you put those things together, it’s pretty impressive.” Because I’ll say the same as you. Before I got into the real estate space, I mindlessly put in my $3000 a year into an IRA account or 401(k) account and invested it in some sort of mutual fund or whatever.
You’re just kind of mindless about it. You don’t even know what’s in there or what’s going on, but somebody told you to do it. But when you start to learn how to really dramatically grow these accounts, it’s a whole new ballgame.
Clay: Right. And that’s the other thing we were talking about, the account types that we’re going to talk about today. Another thing that sometimes gets lost is that because the Coverdell education savings account and a health savings account, or individual custodial accounts, they have the same investment power as an IRA.
The contribution and distribution rules are a little bit different, but they get to invest in real estate and all of those kind of complementary asset classes. And so again, you get to put your expertise and service of another life goal that you may have.
Mike: Yeah, and what’s also interesting for me is I’ve seen this in the past is, first off, I’ve mentioned to you beforehand and I think that a lot of people who listen to my show know this, I have an eight-year-old son, so we’re thinking about college. He goes to a private school now, we’re like, “There’s got to be a way to offset some of this expense.”
We were kind of thinking about those things and my wife started working out of college on Wall Street. I was a finance guy, I worked in banking and we had no idea of these things that we’re going to talk about today or some of the tools we’re going to talk about, because that stuff is not talked about in college at all, or even for major financial institutions, it’s not talked about because that’s just not a product that they sell.
And as far as if you were to go ask every kind of person, not trying to call anyone out, but Bank of America, Wells Fargo, there would be like less than one percent of people that understand what we’re going to talk about here today and that’s the business that they’re in, is financial products.
Clay: Right. There’s a tough thing to do and this is just a communication miss, I think sometimes people will ask their financial team, CPA’s, CFP, parents, whoever their financial team is sometimes. But particularly a vendor, and they’ll say “Hey, can my IRA or HSA or ESA invest in real estate?” And a lot of the time, the answer that they get is no. And I don’t think the person is trying to deceive them.
I think they just realize that if it’s a bank or brokerage house, they don’t know how to do it and they don’t. So they’re really answering for themselves but not from an IRS perspective. But I feel like that sometimes shuts people down. So I’m always glad for opportunity to at least say where the rules are coming from and give everyone the opportunity to make the choice.
Mike: Absolutely, absolutely, so let’s start with Coverdell, let’s talk about what it is and how most people use it, let’s say outside of the real estate space. And let’s talk about as a real estate investor and you have a self-directed account, how you can treat these accounts by giving them an injection of steroids, basically.
Clay: Sure. Well, as I mentioned, a Coverdell ESA is an individual custodial account that the person opens it for a beneficiary, and that’s usually the person who’s going to incur the education expenses. You have to open it for them before they’re 18, and they have to distribute all of the assets before the age of 30.
Now you do have the opportunity to change beneficiaries to some extent, in the middle. So you do have some flexibility there. But the financial part of it is really that the annual contribution limit is $2000 a year. It’s not a deduction on the way in. But as long as it’s distributed for qualified education expenses, then it’s tax free on the way out. And of course the beauty of all of these accounts is the tax deferred status in the middle.
Mike: So you said you can’t deduct it up front. So as a parent, let’s say, and hopefully this resonates with people out there, I’m just going to use myself as a guinea pig here, as a parent, I could contribute $2000 to my son’s account, but it’s post tax, so I’ve paid taxes on those funds. It’s not a tax-deductible thing at the time I contribute. As long as he uses it, before he’s 30 for educational expenses, then there essentially are no taxes on the profit, or what you’ve accrued in that account.
Clay: Right. So the earnings, so you put in a certain number of dollars, those earnings, would be able to grow within that tax-deferred state and be distributed for education expenses. And those are the things that you would think of, tuition, books, that kind of thing.
Mike: Awesome, so most people would say “Hey, I’m going to put in . . . ” I know the limits have changed over time, so effectively I’m going to put in $2000 a year into little Johnny’s account and we’re going to invest in an S&P 500 index fund or something else.” And they hope that that accumulates over time to enough to pay for Johnny’s education. That’s typically how the non-real estate person would use with effectively a non-self-directed account. This would be a traditional . . . is that what it’s called? A traditional Coverdell account?
Clay: Well, yeah, the vernacular of the vocabulary’s a little tough. I would just call that a banker-broker GSA.
Mike: Okay, and so real estate investors, it doesn’t have to be real estate, but since we’re real estate focused here that’s what we’re going to focus on. But what are some of the things you could do to really kind of magnify those relatively small contributions that won’t pay for much, quite frankly. Two thousand dollars doesn’t go very far in college these days.
Clay: Well, first thing I’ll say is that some people will use an ESA as part of a strategy, education expenses have gotten so high that . . .
Mike: Right. It’s out of control.
Clay: A lot of people are trying to use all the tools they can. So sometimes it’s just a piece of the puzzle. But I think real estate investors have a, especially if they’re active in a community and have a good network, have a real advantage because there are a lot of ways to participate in real estate assets that are low entry points. So one of the biggest ones is that you can partner.
So if you had a self-directed IRA, by self-directed today we’re talking about that as meaning alternative assets, so hard assets like real estate, private equity, things like that. You can partner that ESA with your traditional IRA, or Roth IRA side by side at tenants in common, something like that.
Lending, so that’s usually a big one for lower cash value accounts because there’s not any real restriction of that. So if you know somebody who needs a bridge loan or a construction loan or something like that, you can loan that money out. And of course, your account receives that receipts, the principles and interest payments.
And in a lot of ways, and I’ve been to some seminars where people will talk about really creative ways to do notes in terms of wrap arounds, and things like that. But other real estate instruments are available as well. So options, certainly debt leverage, real estate purchases are possible.
Now you might not quite ever get your ESA up to where it can buy something very big. But of course you can extend your buying power by using debt leverage. So a lot of the strategies that you probably have in your personal real estate investing, can to some extent, be grafted into those accounts, as long as you take the time to set it up properly.
Mike: Right, so when you’re talking about dead equity, you’re basically, correct me if I’m wrong here, so what happened was even before we talked today, I started looking up Coverdell accounts last week because it’s relevant to me now and for my family. So a Coverdell account could effectively borrow money, it would have to be a non-recourse loan, so you’d have to find a lender that’s willing to lend non-recourse.
So let’s say you put $2000 in there for a couple of years and you have $5000 or $6000 in there. That account could effectively borrow money through a non-recourse loan, which basically means that whoever that lender is can’t sue you. They can just take the property back. So there are lots of non-recourse lenders out there, you just have to find one that makes sense and effectively could buy property to rehab or rent, or really anything else. And effectively lever up their $4, $5, $6000 that they have in the account to actually do deals with that account, right?
Clay: Exactly right. You know the other thing, I’ll just mention too since we’re talking about the mechanical structure of the investment, is it’s not uncommon for me to see people who have multiple accounts. So let’s go crazy and say they have an ESA, they have an HSA, they have an IRA, and all of those accounts are going to be investors in an LLC or some other corporate entity that’s going to buy a much, much bigger asset, combined with other investors and they’re going to buy an office building or something like that.
So again, almost all of the creative ways that you can engage those smaller dollar amounts, in terms of either partnering them or using leverage to increase the buying power, those are in play.
Mike: Sure, sure. And I know we’re going to talk about HSA accounts in a little bit here, but the mechanics I believe work the same for what we’re going to talk about. So let me give you, for the listeners out there, a couple of examples of things that I think you can do, and correct me if I’m wrong. And I would say obviously seek out an expert when you’re doing this stuff, because we’re not, I’m not an adviser. Clay and his company are.
So you could effectively borrow money, you could do a rehab project, and let’s say as long as I don’t know what a non-recourse lender is going to require, if they require 20% down, or whatever their terms are. It could be much less potentially.
Clay: It’s actually usually more because their only chance to make themselves whole if there is default is the property.
Mike: I see. And that would be a traditional lender. But if you found, I know that there’s some arm’s length issues, like you can’t necessarily lend it to yourself or a direct family member can’t lend it to you but a friend could. So potentially a friend that wasn’t worried about the risk could lend you 99% if they wanted to.
Clay: They could.
Mike: So if you found that lender you could take that $3 or $5000 that’s in your account, buy a property, rehab it, sell it, let’s just hypothetically say you profit at 20,000 and you’ve turned that $2, $3, $4000 into an additional 20,000on top of that profit on the deal that is now in that account that could be used to pay for your child’s education. Is that right?
Clay: That’s exactly right.
Mike: Yeah, okay, awesome. So let’s say on the wholesale side, we do a lot of wholesale assigning or assigning type deals, are you familiar with assignments? Could you effectively contract a house in the name of this account, I guess which would be a trust, right?
Clay: Well, the account itself is actually its own legal and financial entity. So it would be securing the control just like any other.
Mike: Sure, so then your account would get a house under contract or you could potentially assign it to that one and allow it to assign it to somebody else, assign that house to another investor at a $5000 premium, or 10,000 or whatever it might be. And effectively the assignment fee or kind of profit on that deal would go right back into the account, is that right?
Clay: That’s exactly right, and the only restriction there is that disqualified persons list, and just to give you a quick overview. It’s lineal ascendants and descendants, so your parents, grandparents, kids, grandkids, and kids’ and grandkids’ spouses. But that all family members are actually not disqualified. So brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles, the sides of the family tree, they are actually not disqualified persons. So they don’t have those restrictions.
Mike: Yeah, and I’ve known people in the past that are friends and they kind of have an agreement, like, “I’ll do this for you, you do this for me, and we find a way to do it fair.” I don’t want to say anything wrong here. I’m not an attorney and I don’t play one on TV and what. But it’s just somebody that, I don’t know, does that sound fair?
Clay: Well, I think that the IRS would always, in the code and this is totally geeking out, there’s actually a phrase that says “directly or indirectly,” so if they put together an arrangement where you were trying to get around the disqualified person rules, they’d probably . . .
Mike: That’s not what I was trying to convey. It’s just kind of a third party lender that’s not a family member that says “I’ll lend a non-recourse loan to you and when I need it, you’ll lend to me.” So I don’t know if that crossed the line or not. Good thing I didn’t say anything
Clay: Well, on it’s face, no. But you probably wouldn’t want it to be seen as quid pro quo, but yeah, absolutely.
Mike: I actually just made all of that up, Clay, so that wasn’t really [inaudible 00:19:16].
Clay: Hypothetically speaking.
Mike: But I hope that you guys are listening can understand the power of, especially if you’re a real estate investor and you’re worried about your kids education, I saw an article the other day where somebody was like “I haven’t started saving for my son’s education yet and he’s ten. What do I do?” And if you’re like a late bloomer and you’re not doing these things, these are some very powerful tools. And if you are early and your kids are really young, then you know, God bless you, hopefully this lights a fire under you to really get that kid ready for Harvard.
Clay: And if I may, there’s one other thing to just throw into it, is just that I’ve had lots of people approach me about what are the rules for kids to open a Roth or traditional, because there is an educational exception component to those accounts as well. And so, I think it’s a great idea to talk to your CPA or financial person about all of the tools that you have and where your contribution money will be the most powerful. And there are even other accounts than ESAs as well, but they don’t have the same ability to incorporate your real estate knowledge as this. So if this is your wheelhouse, there are a couple of accounts that you might use to help your kid.
Mike: So you’re saying they don’t necessarily have to be an educational vehicle, but they may allow expenses for education to be used. Okay, awesome. Is there anything else on Coverdell that we missed or should mention? I guess people could own rental properties as well, right? I mean it could throw off . . . the cash that it throws off could be used to pay for college expenses.
So let me ask you this though, is it just college or have you had younger children that are going to private schools or have other special needs education, any of those things like that, can you use these accounts to pay for that? I mean most people originally probably assume college, but there are lots of education needs that are not college.
Clay: Right, there are other qualifying educational expenses. So again, it’s a great thing to look into. If you have a specific target for your kids, looking at how they fit into the distribution possibilities, again, it’s a great way to approach the topic, this is what my plan is, I’m going to look at the rules and match those up and decide where my dollars are best spent.
Mike: Right. That’s great. So let’s talk about HSAs. I think a lot of the things we just said apply. But you can use for to pay for your health insurance, or long term care insurance, or other things like that, right? Why don’t you make a segue into HSAs here.
Clay: Sure. I think the thing that’s most compelling about HSAs to me is that there are two ways to really take advantage of it. So yes, it’s an individual custodial account, so it has that tax-deferred status. Money gets contributed, it buys some stuff, and that stuff, real estate or whatever, has earnings, and that comes back into the account and is tax-deferred until you take distributions. So it’s got that regular power.
But the cool thing about it, I think from my perspective, is that it’s pre-taxed money in, quote-unquote, like a traditional IRA, so you either get a deduction or it gets deducted from your pay. And if you take a distribution from a qualified medical expense, it’s also tax-free on the way out. So like a Roth. So you actually get the powerful part of both of those account types in the same account.
So if all you did was cycle your health expenses through your HSA, on every medical expense you’d be saving a percentage of your income tax bracket just instantaneously. If you even just put in the HSA for a day and took it out the next day, you would still get that tax advantage. So that’s the immediate benefit.
But the thing that I think is incredibly powerful is that once the HSA is opened, and again, an individual custodial account, the account holder controls it, and it’s open until you take distribution of everything. And you get to choose when you take distribution for qualified medical expenses. So if you are making your annual contribution every year, but you’re able to take care of your medical expenses out of your pocket, that money can be in a tax-deferred state making more money. And any qualified medical expense that you’ve incurred since the HSAs open, you can always go back and reimburse yourself for it tax-free.
So once the HSA is open, it’s really important to keep receipts for every medical expense and decide whether you want to reimburse yourself for it right then and there, which you can do and it’s terrific. Or if you want to let that money make more money or keep it invested longer, you can try to take care of that expense out of your pocket and then come back and reimburse yourself later. So it actually has the power to take care of medical expenses for your lifetime if your health and your finances are all able to be incorporated into that strategy. But the tax benefits are amazing.
Mike: Yeah, so not all real estate investors, everybody listening to this, is full time like I am, but a lot are. Some are part time and maybe have health benefits through other things. But for somebody that have left the corporate world to be self-employed, I can tell you, I’ve worked for employer’s where I’ve never thought about health insurance because it was such an insignificant cost, because it was subsidized. And that’s changing for a lot of people. But when you’re self-employed, it goes through the roof.
I have a huge deductible, a $7 or $800 deductible for my family, and we pay a lot of money every month. And it’s really just emergency care, like doctor’s visits and that stuff, we’re never going to overcome our deductible and hopefully we never, knock on wood, hopefully we never need it. But, until you’ve got to get up over that hurdle, it’s expensive, let’s say it that way.
So tell me this though, I seem to recall something about, when you’re married, you can cover expenses for, it’s a little bit different than a regular individual account where you can cover the expenses for your spouse, and things in there as well?
Clay: And dependents. Any qualified medical expense that they incur, in fact, you can do that out of your HSA even if you have single coverage. And the other thing I’ll just mention, since we’re talking about the scope of qualified medical expenses, they’re much greater than just the things that your health insurance covers. So if that is a subset of expenses, the thing that qualifies as medical expenses for your HSA is much bigger, so dental, vision, chiropractic, some other types of alternative health things are also included. So all Schedule A medical expenses and more.
So there are people sometimes who worry. And a lot of times it gets confused with an FSA, a flex spending account. So HSAs are not use it or lose it. And qualified medical expenses give you a lot of options to take tax-free distributions. And there’s also a strategy at the end of the day, or at 65, it’s not the end of the day for us anymore.
Mike: Let’s hope not.
Clay: Hopefully, right. It’s just maybe the half time. Anyway, at 65, if you don’t think that you’re ever going to take distribution for qualified medical expenses, you can take distribution for anything without penalty. You do pay taxes, so it becomes like a traditional IRA. So you always have a backstop. But the interesting thing is that the annual contribution limits don’t affect your annual contribution ability for your retirement account. So it is an additional chunk of money that you can put in a tax advantaged state every year.
Mike: Okay. And I think I recall, you can actually, without going through all of the qualified expenses as you mentioned you pay for other things, is you can actually use that money to pay for, I believe, correct me if I’m wrong, long term care insurance.
Clay: Partially, usually. Long-term care premiums, absolutely.
Mike: You can tell that I’m getting older. I’m thinking about all of these things. But one of the beautiful things about long-term care is that there are a lot of things that that could pay for as well. And we’re all going to get old at some point and we’re all going to need additional care at some point and there are a lot of things I believe that that covers. So if you could pay for that in a tax benefit fashion, that’s a good thing.
Clay: Right, I mean, if your tax bracket is 20%, to get a 20% savings on every medical expense, who wouldn’t take that?
Mike: Okay, awesome. Well, Clay, how do folks learn more about this? I mean I know this isn’t intended to necessarily be a plug for your company, but I know that you help a lot of people do this. For folks that are hearing this that just had this epiphany like “I need to start doing this.” Maybe kind of talk about how they can get started in learning more, maybe some of the resources that you all have on your site, or something like that.
Clay: Sure. It really is one of those things where we would like you to just know, whether it’s with us or with anybody. So on our website, we have a pretty robust educational system where you can watch pre-recorded webinars or download guides, and things like that so you can get the sketch of it. Most of the stuff that we’re talking about for us, is about alternative assets and are geared towards real estate or hard assets, or things like that.
But I’ll be perfectly honest that the IRS site is actually more accessible than you might imagine and so the publication 560 is a good one. So if you went on irs.gov and looked that up, that would give you a sense of that. And I believe that the number is 970 for ESAs. I’m not sure about that right off the top of my head, but they have kind of PDF versions that will give you a sketch and they’re pretty accessible.
The other thing that I’ll just mention is that we really, again as educators and that’s kind of how I came to this business, if you just call and say, “Hey can you explain this to me?” We’re happy to spend 20 or 30 minutes with you on the phone and just kind of give you a sketch.
Mike: I think that’s the important thing for folks that are listening is that you really need to talk to somebody who understands self-directed accounts, because like you said, if you’re talking to your traditional brokerage house or bank person that can help with this, they just don’t get this. They don’t understand this. And it’s not that they’re being misleading, but it’s like, they often will say that you can’t do it or, maybe that’s illegal. Whatever, they just don’t know. So you’ve got to talk to somebody that knows what they’re talking about, like Clay.
Clay: Well can I tell you a real quick funny story?
Mike: Sure, yeah.
Clay: So when I opened my HSA, one of the things that is daunting to people is that they worry that in that first year of having a high-deductible health plan that you have to have to open an HSA, that they’ll have a health crisis and they’ll really be in trouble. And so the IRS gives you a once in a lifetime transfer from a traditional IRA to your HSA. And in a lot of ways, it’s really meant for people at the beginning to kind of get some money in there. And so it’s a great little tool, but it’s so unknown.
I actually went to my CPA to get my taxes done and he didn’t know about it and I had to really convince him, “No, it’s really real, I’ll find it for you in the code.” And you know, he’s laughing at me, like, “Okay, okay.” And he went back and found it instantly. But I had to convince him a little bit because it’s just something that’s out of his scope and he’s a very smart guy.
Mike: Yeah, maybe take just minute and talk about what you can do with rolling over because I think sometimes people are like, “Well, wow, that sounds really awesome, but I don’t have the money to fund it right now,” or whatever. Talk about what you can do if people have other accounts out there that they can maybe rollover into an account like we talked about today.
Clay: Sure, the thing about HSAs and education savings accounts is that they have a limited ability to move money in between accounts. They are additional contribution limits. So in other words, if you have several IRAs, or an IRA and 401(k)s, at some point, you have a personal limit of how much money you can contribute.
But those contribution limits for your ESA and HSA are over and above those. Old 401(k)s and IRAs and 403(b)s through savings plans and pension plans, and all that kind of stuff, a lot of the retirement ones, they have some mobility, especially if you’re no longer employed, where if it’s an employer plan. So you actually can move that money into position with a self-directed IRA provider or just move it around to accommodate the economic environment.
With HSAs and ESAs you can have multiple ones, and we see this mostly with HSAs. So somebody will have an HSA at a bank that has a debit card that’s very liquid and easy to get to and that’s what they know they might need in the short run, and then they’ll have an HSA with us, or somebody else that handles longer-term investments with HSAs.
And whatever they don’t feel like they need, they move over to the long-term investment for the long range planning. And so, while there’s not a ton of mobility for these two accounts that we’re talking about today, there is always the possibility for having multiple ones. Now it doesn’t increase your annual contribution limit. But what it does do is get you able to put it into position to invest in what you want to.
Mike: Awesome, well if you’re listening to this and you see the power of it, I would definitely encourage you to research it some more. And Clay, tell us how folks would get a hold of you if they want to talk to you and learn more.
Clay: Absolutely. Phone number first. Toll free, 877-742-1270. I’m extension 113, you’re welcome to call me directly. 155 is usually kind of the answer line. E-mail is a good one as well, so that’s [email protected]. The web address is www.newdirectionira.com. You can do a lot of educational work on that site 24/7. But when you do have scenario in your head or a specific question, I really encourage you to give us a call or send us an email. We love that kind of stuff.
Mike: Awesome. Well, I’m excited about the stuff. I hope that those of you that listened today learned something new here today. And we’ll see you on an upcoming episode. Clay, thanks for spending your time with us today. Thanks for educating us. It was great stuff.
I’m more excited about it than I was when we started, if that tells you anything. Hopefully there are some other people out there who don’t think I’m too much of a fool. But it is what it is. This is good stuff and I appreciate you being here.
Clay: I was glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Mike: Awesome. And we’ll see you soon at the REI Power Summit.
Clay: Looking forward to it.
Mike: Thank you, thank you, have a good day.
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