Operate A Balanced Real Estate Business

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And now let’s get started with today’s show.
Hey, it’s Mike Hambright with flipnerd.com. Welcome back for another exciting VIP interview, where I interview successful real estate investing experts and entrepreneurs in our industry to help you learn and grow. Today I’m joined by my friend, Ken Corsini, of Georgia Residential Partners. It’s a real estate investing firm that Ken founded about 10 years ago. Ken has also just launched a real estate investing podcast, which we’ll talk about as well. I know he’s excited about that.

Ken has multiple exit strategies. He’s a wholesaler, he does turnkey rentals, rehabbing, and he’s even doing new builds now. As you grow in your real estate investing business, it’s important you find multiple ways to generate revenue and be able to evolve in your business over time as the market shifts. Ken is going to tell us all about that today and how you can run a business that runs for years and years and years like he has.
Before we get started though, let’s take a moment to recognize our featured sponsors.
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Hey, Ken, welcome to the show.

Ken: Hey, Mike, how are you doing?

Mike: Yeah, good. Good to see you.

Ken: Good, thanks for having me.

Mike: Yeah. I want to hear all about your podcast, and I know we’ve had some of the same guests. We run on the same circles because we’re in the same mastermind with Jason Medley. Before we get started talking about your podcast and talking about all your experiences, give us your background and tell us how you got started. I know like me and a lot of other guests refer to ourselves as corporate refugees. We were working in large companies and had enough of it and moved on. Tell us your background and how you got to where you are today.

Ken: Sure. You’re exactly right. I am plugged from the corporate world back in 2005. I came out of the University of Georgia with a business degree in 1999. I went to work for Marsh & McLennan. It’s a big insurance brokerage, and I actually did software consulting for them. I actually really liked the job. It was a good job, great work environment. But if you’re an entrepreneur, you know that it’s not fulfilling. I knew that I wanted to be a business owner and I really was drawn to real estate. About 2003-2004, I started just educating myself. It’s kind of funny. I bought a Carlton Sheets set, one of those sets that probably sold for $1000. I bought it at a garage sale, unopened, for $10.

Mike: Cassette tapes?

Ken: They were CDs. They were CDs but had the booklet and everything. It was still shrink-wrapped. I took it home and unwrapped it. I listened, I’m not kidding you, to those 10 CDs for about a year straight. I just soaked up the information and absorbed as much knowledge as I could and just really fell in love with real estate investing. I figured, “I’ve got to figure out how I can leave my day job and get into real estate investing.”
It’s kind of interesting. An opportunity opened up where I bought into what you could almost consider a franchise. They were out of Seattle and they put together this program where they were training guys like me how to do assignments. It was an interesting model. We would find lease purchase tenants and then go find them a house and then partner them up with an investor that would buy the house for them. In the middle, I created an assignment fee for myself. I never bought the house. I basically just partnered two parties together.
That worked great in 2005. It worked great in 2006. I did about 75 deals over the course of two years, which was a good start up for me. There was enough income that I had left my job and had done okay for myself. But then, inn 2007, the market just tanked. This business that I bought into went under. They disappeared. They closed up shop. I had to make a decision. “Okay. They’re gone but I have gotten some education on real estate investing. I know how to find tenants. I know how to find investors. What am I going to do?”

In 2007, I put together what we call the turnkey model. I started a renovation company where we could buy distressed properties, we could fix them up and then we would place this same lease purchase tenants into this properties. Then I would sell them to investors as a turnkey deal where everything’s already been done for you. That business really evolved over so many years, since 2007 to where we are today 2015. We’re still doing it. It’s still our core business, taking distressed properties, fixing them, putting tenants in them, stabilizing them and then typically selling them to out of state investors as a turnkey investment. That’s been the last 15 years before I got . . .

Mike: Do you property manage those or do you hand it off to somebody else?

Ken: That’s a great question. We’ve burned through some property managers over there because now we do about 100 deals in a year. For a small property manager, that can blow them up. We blew up a couple of property managers over the years to where about three years ago we partnered up and have an equity stake in a property management company that can handle a larger volume. We’ve migrated a lot of our investors over that to where now it is somebody else’s. It is a third party platform for property management, but we still have a stake in it. We’ve got one of their agents that sits in our office, in our meetings so that we have a little more control over that property management piece.

Mike: Within the turnkey world, as you know, if you’re selling to clients and then they have a bad experience with property management, they’re not going to be your clients for very long.

Ken: That’s the lynch pin. It’s the lynch pin in turnkey investments. It’s the lynch pin in your long-term whole buy and rent strategy. We have to have a good property management company in place.

Mike: Based on what we are going to talk about today with bolting on multiple exit strategies over time, we can already see the evolution of where you started by connecting people but you were making an assignment on it, to taking on a bigger role of actually finding the properties and finding the tenants or the lease option people and putting those together and selling them. Every successful real estate investor I know has some similar story where wherever they are today is not where they started. They have the ebb and flow with the market changes and as opportunities open up they gravitate towards them. I know you’re going to tell us more about your story, but just tell us how important that is. Share with our listeners how important that is to be able to adjust?

Ken: It’s been the only way that we’ve been able to survive. If you look over the last six, seven years, especially in Atlanta where Atlanta tanked like everywhere else in the late 2000s. And then you’ve got all these changes happening in terms of lending guidelines and so investors are getting 100% financing and then they were getting 5% financing. And all of a sudden they were finding 25% financing in a blood draw. Everything’s changed for us every year.
And then in 2011, all of a sudden hedge funds descended on Atlanta and gobbled all our inventory. The REOs and foreclosures started drying up. Literary every year, I feel like, “Okay. What’s the big shift in the market that we have to adapt to?” I’m sure it’s not just Atlanta. It’s any market. The real estate market is constantly evolving. For us, we’ve had to stay on top of it and make sure that our business is staying relevant in changing.

Sometimes it’s hard, especially if your ship gets pretty big, where you’ve got a handful of staff and everybody knows their role. And all of a sudden you have to plug them into a different role, and you have to buy different types of properties or you have to acquire them differently, which is what we’ve had to do. You have to be able to make those changes. It’s interesting because even I remember some of the big players in Atlanta in the late 2000s, these guys that I looked up to and wanted to do business with, and they’re nowhere to be found. They’re gone. They couldn’t adapt and so they’re gone. Even the hedge funds, they came in, gobbled up a bunch of inventories, the market shifted and all of a sudden they’re gone too.

Mike: I know I have a similar story. I know lots of people that were huge and now they’re gone. I’d say it was a combination or one of three things. They couldn’t evolve and they were like a one-legged stool. Or they relied too much on too few sources of capital, so their capital got taken away and they’re just dead. Or they were so top heavy with overhead that when they had to change their business model they couldn’t support their model.
You probably went through some of that. It’s one of those things in a good market you tend to take more risk as an entrepreneur. You add more people, you’re investing more, not just in houses but in infrastructure and building. But then there’s going to be a time when a cycle turns around where you’ve just got to get lean. Can you share some of those experiences about cycles you’ve been through?

Ken: Sure. We’re lucky we never had to downsize. For us, it’s been a matter of having to quickly shift direction and focus and plug people into the right areas. Perfect example, my right-hand man, who you met at the last mastermind, Dave, we call him our general manager because he oversees everything. He used to be more focused in the field. He was out there, overseeing the crews and making sure things were getting done in a timely manner. Well, when the market shifted and we couldn’t pick up properties as easily as we used to, back in the day you could pick them off the MLS.
We owned HUD Home Store. We had special software we developed for HUD Home Store. That was our bread and butter. That dried up and so we were like, “Okay. We have to shift quickly.” I had to bring him in. The thing he had done for four years out in the field, “Okay. That’s no longer your job. Your job is to come sit in the office and take calls from the direct mail that we just sent out and get these acquisitions from these off-market leads we’re getting.”
We had to do that quickly. And it wasn’t comfortable, him handing off what he had done before to somebody else and learning this new skill of acquiring properties. It wasn’t easy. It was a little bit painful but we had to do it. In order to continue to acquire properties we had to do it. We’ve been lucky that we’ve never had to scale back and get lean and lay anybody off. And truthfully, our volume’s continued to go up but we’ve had a shift focus in order to do that.

Mike: Along the way, you were primarily a turnkey model and then you started doing more assignments, I assume. Were you easing into assignments before you started rehabbing or was it all at the same time?

Ken: Back in 2007, things crashed. That whole assignment business with the lease purchases, it just flushed down the toilet. If there was an investor in the world in 2007 that was going to buy a house of the MLS at market value, it dried up. For us, we had to buy deeply discounted properties to where we were selling with the tenant but we were also selling them with a lot of equity already in play. That changed for us in terms of what we were buying and whom we were selling to.

Mike: Okay. When did you decide to start rehabbing on your own? I know we’re in much more of a seller’s market now than we have been in many years. But is that something that’s recent or is that something you’ve been doing for a while?

Ken: Yes, we started the renovation back in ’07 and it’s interesting. I sold that renovation company to a partner of mine and now we sub-contract all our renovations. We have three full-time crews. They basically only work for us but they’re not on staff. They are still 1099 crews. They’ve been with us for . . . a lot of these same guys have been with us for years and years and years.
But in the last two years, things have really shifted in Atlanta and probably to all over the country. I know in Dallas, you’ve been probably seen it too. The prices are much higher than they were a couple years ago. We are really getting back to where we were before the crash. So as that shifted, a lot of our turnkey investors started looking elsewhere. I think a lot of turnkey investors went to some of the secondary markets where the housing was still fairly cheap. Price to rent ratios look better in theory. Atlanta is still more of an appreciation place. It’s a little bit more of an equity place. So the higher-end property are appreciating well but maybe the price to rents aren’t as good.

Our turnkey buyers slowed down. That velocity slowed down a little bit. But it honestly was okay because we got this great buying pool in Atlanta now at these much higher prices. It was a natural transition for us to start flipping properties [inaudible 00:00:15]. In fact, last year, half of our properties that we sold were just flipped on the MLS, just retail.

Mike: You say you rehabbed and then resold them?

Ken: Yeah. So we rehab them and just resold them retail, not invest or just to owner occupant. And it’s because there was a high demand. There is a high demand in Atlanta right now for housing. It’s a good opportunity right now to fix and flip in Atlanta. That’s where we transitioned at least half of our business now is fix and flip.
Your next question’s probably going to be about wholesaling. It’s interesting. The way our business works, we acquire a property and it falls through this funnel of, “Okay. Where is this property going to fit in?” Is it a turnkey property? Okay. Maybe. Maybe it’s a property for me because I am trying to build a rental portfolio of myself. Maybe I’ll pick that one up for myself.

Is it going to be a fix and flip? Maybe it’s a little higher end and it doesn’t make sense from a rental stand point, so maybe now it’s a fix and flip. If it doesn’t fit anything or we don’t need that certain type of inventory right now, then it kind of falls to the bottom like Plinko, and you’ve got this wholesale property now that, okay, somebody would want this property, even if we don’t necessarily want this property. Now we’re doing a little bit more wholesaling where we’re sending it out to a list of investors locally to see, “Hey, is this something that you guys would want to buy?”

Mike: Wholesaling has always been our last option, even though we’ve wholesaled a lot of houses. It was usually something that didn’t fit. My first choice is I’m going to keep it as a rental if it fits my criteria. But most of the houses we bought over time don’t fit my rental criteria. And then it was if I want to rehab it. Usually I have a pretty broad rehab profile of what I’m willing to rehab, and that’s evolved over time too.
Wholesaling, we were fortunate to have access to decent capital at decent rates and we’ve always preferred . . . and the Dallas market specifically has always been very retail friendly. It’s a hot market, it’s growing and so we’ve always been a retail first shop. Unless it was a ghetto house that there’s no way we are going even step foot in there. We’re going to make it go away as fast as possible. Or if it was really high end, where I didn’t feel comfortable rehabbing at that level. But yeah, same thing.

I know some other really high volume people, and I think where they struggled over the years is they were wholesale first and if they couldn’t wholesale then they rehab it. What happens is you wholesale your very best deals in the best parts of town and the ones that everybody wants. Then you get stuck rehabbing your turds that are the most risky ones. That’s a dangerous model.

Ken: Yeah, the last thing you want to do is have to buy the property you’re most uneasy about that you wouldn’t sell to somebody else. That sounds backwards.

Mike: Yeah, yeah. I think another thing that a lot of real estate investors . . . a lot of folks wholesale initially. That’s how they get into real investing and they want to wholesale and they don’t have to worry about having their own money. They don’t have to worry about raising money. They just wholesale, but inevitably you’re leaving money on the table in some instances. And in many instances, there may not be enough meat on the bones to wholesale it and make any sort of profit at all. But it can still be a very good retail deal. You have to pass on some of those deals you could do otherwise.

Ken: Yeah. It’s funny. We know a lot of the same guys that are big wholesalers around the country and for me, I’m like you. I can’t see giving up these potentially large profits on a fix and flip. Especially if you’ve already got your crews in place, you’ve got some capital, granted, you have to have some capital lined up. But you’ve got the capital, you’ve got the crews, and it’s a good deal. I’m selfish. I guess I want to buy it and fix and flip it and see how much money I can make on it rather than give it to somebody else.

Mike: Right, absolutely. At some point you started doing new builds. Tell us about that.

Ken: Again, Atlanta being a hot market, it’s funny that there was a lot of lot inventory. We call them pipe farms. You probably have them in Dallas too, where all these people that were developing then everything crashed. Then all these developments out there, there was opportunity to pick up lots really affordably. In about 2011-2012, people saw the writing on the wall that things were going to eventually turn. All of this lot inventory got gobbled up overnight. It was unbelievable. You had all these hedge funds that first squatted on it. But they’re building on it. Believe it or not, we’ve worked through almost all of that inventory. There’s a house sitting on almost every one of those pipe farms out there. It’s unbelievable. There’s this tenant demand in Atlanta for new inventory.
We’ve always been a growth market. We always lived on new construction. Well, it stopped for seven years or six years. So all these people had this tenant demand for new housing. I went ahead and brought on a builder. I’m actually a licensed general contractor myself. I got my master’s back in 2009, went ahead and got licensed as a general contractor just knowing, “Okay. At some point down the road this is going to come in handy.” Sure enough, now that we can pull permits and build houses on my GC license.

I hired basically a superintendent to run new housing builds. We’ve got a handful. We’ve got three or four under our belt. A couple have sold and we’ve got maybe five or six more lined up. Nothing crazy. We’re not going out building the entire subdivisions. But the infill has been really good for us. Even some of the infill, we’re getting occasionally . . . you’ll probably see this in your direct mail marketing. You’ll get somebody that says, “Hey, I don’t have a house but I’ve got a lot.”

We just did one where the guy’s house had burned down some years ago. He got a postcard but he was sitting on this vacant lot in an existing neighborhood in a really good part of town. We picked up this lot for nothing, built the house and it was a homerun. Being able to do some of this infill, where the big builders in Atlanta right now, they’re not after that. They want to pick up a track neighborhood, do the whole neighborhood. But if you’re kind of smaller, you fly under the radar, which is sort of what we’re doing, then you can do the onesies and twosies, there are a lot of opportunities for us right now to capitalize on.

Mike: The interesting thing in all this conversation is to use that cheesy cliche, “You have lots of tools in your tool box.” If the market were to take a dip again, if it cycles down, you’re going to stop doing new building stuff probably, and you’re going to focus more on wholesaling because the retail market will not be as hot. What I want people that are listening today to get out of this, in terms of a lesson, is the importance of having multiple exit strategies and as the market shifts or your access to capital shifts or things happen, which is inevitable for all of us in real estate, that you can adjust and you’ve kind of done everything to some point and you basically pull out the tool that you need and that’s how you operate for a while.

Ken: It is a funny cliche but it is spot on. That’s really what you want to do is have a bunch of tools in your tool belt where if a house . . . and every time I pick up a house, we’ll look at it from different angles. A lot of times, the house doesn’t fit necessarily in one model. I might pick up a retail house and say, “Okay. I want to buy this house but if it doesn’t sell I just miscalculated. Can I rent this thing and turn it into a long-term rental or maybe even a turnkey?”
I’m careful not to get a bunch of high end flips going at one time because I don’t want to be over-leveraged and all of a sudden the market shifts on me or maybe I miscalculated and I’ve got $500,000 projects out there that would really stink if I couldn’t sell them. You’re always looking at what’s plan B. If this doesn’t work out, what am I going to do with it? You just get that’s a part of running a business is risk management. I was a risk management major so I know all about managing risk. As you know, as a full-time business owner, you’re constantly managing your risk. How much money am I going to have over here, and if this doesn’t work out, what’s my back up plan?

Mike: Right, that’s awesome. We have a variety of people that listen to the show, from people with tons of experience like you or I, we have some great guests on the show and I know they’re also listeners. We also have a lot of new people that are looking to get started. What kind of advice would give them on how to at least be thinking about how to develop those tools, because you did it over the course of years and you probably did it by figuring it out on your own out of necessity. But if you could talk to somebody that they could learn from you and not necessarily have to learn from their own mistakes and trials and tribulations, what kind of advice would you give them?

Ken: I think wholesaling is a great way to start. I know a lot of people say that because you’re not necessarily buying a property, not putting yourself out there. If you tie up the house and you cant find an investor, okay, so you didn’t lose anything. You didn’t buy the house and sink the ship. Wholesaling is a great way to get started. And then when you’re ready to step into buying and fixing and flipping, I think partnering initially is a great way to get started.
When I was getting started, I found who the bigger players were in Atlanta and I would go and approach them and say, “Hey, can I sell this properties for you?” They would say, “Yeah, you can sell our properties for us.” I would make a little bit something on it. But I would partner essentially with the guys that were the bigger players and I learned from them. I learned the business. I wasn’t putting myself too far out there in terms of over-leveraging.

And then as you learn the business and you develop some capital, again you don’t want to be out there with all hard money at 5 points, 15% interest and have 10 houses out there. It’s a horrible way to start. As you can raise cheaper capital and as you inch your toes into the water, then get into the fix and flips. But ease your way into it and use partners in the process.

Mike: Ken, I was hoping you could take a few minutes and tell us about . . . you’ve been in business for a while now, you’ve seen lots of different markets. I know you have a young family. Just maybe help share . . . we’ve been talking about some things recently that I wanted you to maybe share with everybody what real estate investing . . . I think there are a lot of people that want to do what we do because they see that it gives them freedom, maybe financial freedom. That’s probably what most people would look at.
As you get into this, you start to realize how important freedom of time is, having flexibility in your life. Maybe take some time and talk to us about what it’s meant to you and maybe we can talk a little bit about maybe some steps people can take to move themselves in that direction of achieving some of those freedoms.

Ken: Sure. As you know, my son was sick this last year, back in 2014. It was very difficult for us, it was very trying, and it was over an extended period of time. One of the things I can look back on and be thankful, one is that he is in perfect health now. But I can also be thankful for the business that I was in because you don’t even necessarily realize that at the time but I would set the business up in such a way that I literary stepped away for about five months solid. Almost no involvement. The business kept running. The houses continued to get bought, houses continued to get sold, money continued to come into business and I was nowhere to be found.
I was there with my son in the hospital, caring for him. And to be able to do that is an unbelievable blessing. Truthfully, I was in the hospital ward for months and didn’t see a lot of dads there. There were a lot of moms and a lot of dads were at work. Here I was, one of the few dads that were consistently there, being able to spend time with my son and care for him and bring him back to health. You can talk about the financial benefits of real estate investing all day long and they can be very good.
The other side is if you set yourself up right you put some automation and you do some good hiring, you could also set yourself up for a lot of freedom in terms of your time and some flexibility. It doesn’t have to be because you’ve got a sick family member. It might be because you want to be with your family and spend more time with them. I know this is a cliche: vacation more.

I hate to push real estate investing because you want more because it does. It is sounds cheesy and corny but it’s true. I have been able to invest a lot more time in my family. Even going on vacations or running away for a week and doing something fun with them. Especially because my kids are still young we can do that. If I were still in the corporate world I wouldn’t have that flexibility to do that.

The other thing is that I’ve actually set up my house now where I’ve got some property and I’ve got an office. It’s a big warehouse that we finished into office space that’s up at the front of my property. When I go to work, I get my golf cart, I drive up my driveway and I go to work. And guess what? In the afternoon, my kids get home from pre-school and they come straight to my office. I get to see my kids literary everyday in the middle of the workday. Or I might come home and have lunch with them.

Who gets to do that? In the corporate world, that’s such a rare thing. People value going hard and travelling and staying, working late hours. That’s not me at all. I would much rather be at home and be with my family and invest in my children while they’re young. The long answer is real estate really does give you the opportunity to invest in your family.

Mike: I don’t want to take lightly the fact that in order to get all those things that you said, you do have to have some systems in place and, more importantly, a good team, people that you can rely on. Maybe take a few minutes to talk about that because I know there are a lot of real estate investors that get into real estate investing because they want those freedoms yet they end up creating another job for themselves where they’re doing everything and they can’t get out of it.

Ken: Yeah very true. You’re right. There are a lot of real estate investors that they are the only guy that can do anything. I’ve tried to set my business up in such a way that empowers the people on my team. Over the years, we’ve made a hire one year then maybe the next year we make two hires. Now we’ve got about 10 people on our staff that all sort of have their set roles. We’ve got a person that does acquisitions. I’ve got a couple of people that do sales. We actually have an in-house brokerage. We have a broker that handles all the retail deals. We have an office manager.
It’s taken me years to put all those people in place but everybody has their role and everybody knows what they’re supposed to be doing. If somebody needs to write a check, I don’t have to be there to write the check. If somebody needs to send a wire, I don’t have to be there to send the wire. If somebody needs to make a buying decision, they might call me or they might just say, “I know this is the house we want,” and they’ll just buy it. It’s taken years to get there but I’ve been very purposeful in setting my business up in such a way that everything doesn’t fall on my shoulders. It’s paid off. Absolutely, it’s paid off.

Mike: Ken, we have just a few minutes here. I want to talk about your podcast. I know you just launched a new podcast, and I’ve listened to some of your shows. We have many of the same friends. I saw them on there. There’s this incestuous podcast full of people that just interview each other, which is actually cool that everybody gets along. I don’t see it as competition. We know all the top podcasters, for the most part. None of them see it as competition. It’s like, “Hey, we’re just talking to each other,” so that’s cool. Tell us about your podcast.

Ken: I appreciate that, and I agree with you 100%. That’s one of the things. I’ve known all of these top podcasters. I’ve advertised on the shows, I’ve done bus tours with them. I’ve been involved. I said, “I know this space fairly well. I’d always been attracted to it. It should be a natural fit for me.” I’ve been doing blogging for Bigger Pockets for the last so many years, about four years. I’ve already been in that content creation mode, which I really enjoy putting my thoughts into a blog. It helps me work through what I’m doing and process those things. I love educating other people, inspiring them. Again, it was a natural fit to take this content that I was doing on Bigger Pockets and then put it into a podcast.
The podcast is called Deal Farm, and the website is dealfirm.net. The whole goal for me is to inspire people to do deals. Half of our shows are where we interview guys like you and you share your best deal ever. For me, when I was starting out listening to guys who were doing real estate talk about these deals, to me was the most inspiring thing. “You put that deal together how?” And that’s so creative and it was so interesting. We’ll take a deal, one of the favorite deals, and we’ll dissect it, we’ll talk about what made it special. And they’re short. I wanted to keep these podcasts around 10 to 20 minutes, just in and out, because I’m a busy guy. I know a lot of your listeners are probably busy.

It’s hard to get an hour podcasted. Inevitably in an hour, if it’s an hour podcast you can have some fluff and some filler. I want to get in there and get some content, listen to it and you’re done. We’ll probably do two episodes a week, I think, is what we’re thinking in terms of our release schedule. I’d like to build a community of people that just want to share deals.

On our site, we have a place where you can post deals, you can look for partners, and you can look for investors. Selfishly, I’m hoping that it’s an opportunity for me to do a lot of deals with some of our listeners. Lend money to them, partner on deals. I just want to see people, our listeners, get together and do deals with each other and see where it goes from there.

Mike: Awesome, awesome. Dealfarm.net, and then you’re on iTunes under the same name?

Ken: Yeah, that’s right.

Mike: Dealfarm. Awesome. Guys, check it out. We’ll add a link down below the video here for those that are watching. Ken, hey, thanks so much for your time today. It’s good to see you again. I appreciate you being here.

Ken: Absolutely, thanks for having me.

Mike: All right, buddy. Stay in touch.

Ken: All right, take care.
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