Own American Real Estate

Mike: Welcome to the Flip Nerd.com podcast. This is your host Mike Hambright and on this show I will introduce you to VIPs in the real estate investing industry as well as other interesting entrepreneurs whose stories and experiences can help you take you business to the next level.
We have three new shows each week, which are available in the iTunes store or by visiting Flip Nerd.com. So, without further ado, let’s get started.
Hey, it’s Mike Hambright with Flip Nerd.com. Welcome back for another exciting flip show. Today I have with me a good friend of mine, Greg Rand. He’s the CEO of Own America, and Greg is a leading force behind making residential real estate as asset class that institutions, families, even individuals can invest in by helping aggregate packages of single family homes. It’s a really interesting space right now. We’re going to learn a lot more about it. But before we get started with Greg, though, let’s take a moment to recognize our featured sponsors.

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Hey Greg, thanks for being on the show.

Greg: Thank you very much. It’s good to be here.

Mike: Yes, it’s good to see you again. So, you’re in a really interesting space. Obviously you’re treading new ground in a lot of ways. And for those who don’t know you, I mean I met you a few years ago at a HomeVestors event, I read your book a few years ago.

Greg: Good.

Mike: And I’ve always been intrigued by what you’re doing, in fact what we’re just talking about, what you’ve been doing over the last few years has even changed dramatically. But for those who don’t know you, tell us a little bit about your background and what you’re doing now and how you got there.

Greg: Sure. Well, thanks for having me. It’s an honor. My background is that I spent my entire adult life and part of my childhood in the residential real estate business. And anybody who’s an SOB-son of broke-knows what I mean by that, you know. I was taking pictures and putting in signs and answering phones in a real estate office when I was 11 years old.
Twenty-five years ago, I got into the brokerage and technology part of the business and have always had a belief that it was an asset class that just really wasn’t fully understood and wasn’t fully represented. And so, yes, I consider myself an entrepreneur in the real estate space. I’ve done a lot of things and I love it, and we’re in a really interesting spot now with Own America. I launched it back in 2010 and we’re firmly in the single-family investment space now in a variety of ways.

Mike: And you were kind of on the leading edge of …there always been this disjoint between residential realtors and brokers and the investment side. And the way that I’ve always put it is a lot of realtors and brokers historically have thought that investors are slimy, but they all secretly want to be one. And a lot of real estate investors have viewed agents and brokers, in all honesty, as probably if anything a necessary evil on some level. And so, there has been this kind of colliding of worlds over the last few years.

Greg: Yes, we call it a tale of two stereotypes.

Mike: Yes.

Greg: Realtors have earned their stereotype for being not as serious of an industry as they should have been, given the import of what they do.

Mike: Yes.

Greg: And we could talk for an entire show about the reasons why that evolved. And an industry of investors that are bottom-feeding vultures, so to speak, that bought too many tapes on late night cable. And the tale of two stereotypes, in the middle some place are great real estate entrepreneurs of all sizes and shapes that have a huge belief in the success of the United States and recognize the fact that single family homes is the way to play the growth and success of towns and cities across the United States.

Mike: Yes.

Greg: And there are a few realtors out there who know what they’re doing. And so, if you can match them up, it’s a good thing.

Mike: I guess it’s largely a fact that most people have, up until recently, especially on the agent side and the broker side, have been very transactional, right? You’re just kind of doing one transaction at a time, never really thinking about it from an asset class standpoint, which is what you’re doing now.
So, talk a little bit about how you’re kind of evolved, and the opportunity that’s arisen and that you’re focused on now.

Greg: That’s great. It’s been a really exciting ride for the last four years. I sold a residential real estate brokerage company, a good- sized company, a 1000 agents, up in the suburbs of New York, to start Own America back in 2010, because I was convinced something on the other side of the housing crisis was going to be a massive investment boom, and there wasn’t really an industry to enable that yet.
And of course over that period of time we started out setting up a national network. We’ve got a national footprint; in every market in the country, we have boots on the ground that we’ve trained, certified, real estate brokers with the technology and tools to represent their little piece of dirt as an asset class. And now we represent a variety of investors over the last couple of years, large ones that you’ve talked about and everyone’s read about and probably interacted with, who have been aggregating massive portfolios of single family homes strategically across the country.
And now, they are vindicated and so is everybody else who has bought real estate and held it for a decent amount of time. The prices are coming back and there are a lot of people who want to take some money off the table for whatever their reasons are-and there ,are a lot of different reasons-and we’re representing them. We’re essentially marketing and brokerage operation with a national footprint servicing investors, focusing most heavily now on helping people who own property, and have packaged portfolios on packaging, positioning, and then marketing them to a broad global audience.

Mike: So, talk a little bit about when you started a few years ago; you were essentially training agents to think more like an investor. Is that safe?

Greg: Well, to recognize the fact that the stats show that a third of all, or 25% to 30% of all the transactions every year of residential real estate are purchases and sales by investors, and yet realtors are obsessed with home ownership. They define home ownership as owner occupied home ownership, when every home that we as investors own, those are homes that are owned. That’s home ownership, too, right? It just happens to be occupied by somebody else. But it’s a business opportunity.
We knew they weren’t trained. It was a niche. We developed the certification and the technology tools to create that specialization in markets all around the country. And so, we woke up one day and we had an army of people that knew was a yield was. Imagine that, right? In all parts of the country you could actually measure the yield and analyze the return on investment on a property anywhere in the country. And so, that army became our operation on the ground to service investors that would want to be anywhere.

Mike: What’s evolved over the few years, certainly at the institutional level, is that this has become an asset class that is very much a Wall Street product, or can be at this point, right, which is very different. And what you’re doing is kind of boiling that down to the folks that don’t necessarily want to buy one house at a time and that aren’t buying packages of thousands. They are buying 10, 20 at a time. Is that right?

Greg: Well, that’s true. What I’m all about is enabling more people to be able to benefit from owning U.S. housing, okay? I love, for example, that one of our clients that we acquire and fill their portfolio for is a publically traded REIT. So, people can buy single- family homes now by buying shares in American Residential Properties. That’s a good thing, right? And some of the other public REITs.
But now on the portfolio side we discovered there are people who are watching this show right now who have built portfolios of three or 30, or maybe 300 homes, blood, sweat, and tears to fix them up, to lease them up, to have them perform, to squeeze as much blood from this stone as they could, to manage it efficiently, and so now have a performing, monetized portfolio. We call them stabilized portfolios.
Now they want to liquidate. Where do they go? Commercial brokers have their noses in the air about houses, right? They won’t touch it. Residential brokers are obsessed with home ownership owner occupancy. And we think what the industry is tripping into if it’s not careful is if you talk about a portfolio, people hear bulk sale. And when they hear bulk sale they think discount. And when you’re a seller, discount is an evil word, okay?

You want to get a premium for your product when you ‘re selling it, and so we’re establishing stabilized portfolios for the buying public as something that is a very valuable premium product. It’s a known investment. A lot of the risk has been taken out because it’s occupied, it’s renovated to a standard that’s occupiable, and it’s actually performing. You buy the portfolio and you get checks in the mail from renters the first month.

Mike: Right.

Greg: So, we think that’s a major leap forward and the idea that if we have a client who has 100 units, we break it down to pieces of 12, and 24, because with the mortgage financing available now you can have a quarter million dollars and buy a portfolio of 12 houses, getting 70% or 75% financing. That also has never really been possible like it is today.

Mike: Until recently, yes.

Greg: So, the barrier is down, and we’re trying to enable more people because I don’t want to go to the stock market. To me, this is a beautiful thing. The people believe in housing, the entrepreneurs out there were struggling to find capital. Now there’s capital, and we’re trying to make it as easy as possible to get in and take positions.

Mike: So, talk a little bit about who is actually selling these. Is it really the guys like me that just want to sell my portfolio, or are some of the institutional folks trying to liquidate their standing?

Greg: Yes, all of the above. We announced this five weeks ago, that this was a new brokerage operation for us, and we launched it because after dealing in portfolios for a year, we realized how poorly they are packaged. There are people out there saying, “Hey, I’m selling my portfolio; here’s its [inaudible: 00:10:53],” okay? No background documentation, no reconnaissance being done.
We have sellers who are large institutions that bought 100 houses in a city and changed their minds. And so, it’s not worth keeping those 100, so they want to sell them; all the way down to an individual who is in his sixties whose wife is saying, “Your heart’s going to give out. Of you don’t get out of this business, we want to go to Florida, sell the damn portfolio.”

Mike: Yeah.

Greg: And he’s saying, “Okay. I own 70 houses, who do I go to to list this?” And he looked around and couldn’t find anybody, found his way to us through referral. And so, it’s everything in between. This is a guy who bought back in the ’80s, and he’s done really, really, really well.

Mike: Right.

Greg: Other people bought five years ago and have done well enough to pull some money off the table. It’s a total diversity of strategies.

Mike: And from a discount standpoint, talk about how important it is that those houses are.. a lot of folks who are buying into REITs are sort of buying into different funds. There’s some value in the fact that they know that they’re not going to get hit with a bunch of maintenance issues and things like that. Now the way I buy houses the worst the better. I prefer them in terrible shape. But we’re kind of more on the hustle side. And so, when I see a package of 70 houses, you know, there are a lot of people that have packages like that and they have significant deferred maintenance, which I’m okay with, because I factor that into the price that I’m willing to pay.

Greg: Right.

Mike: But talk a little bit about the level of disrepair or preparedness that these packages generally need to be in.

Greg: That’s a great question. And the truth is that we’re selling portfolios as they are. There are some that we won’t take on because they’re vacant, okay. But if something is occupied, there’s a certain degree of, “Well, it’s occupiable, if it’s occupied.” Our ethic is to show it for what it is, okay? So, every one of our portfolios is inspected. The units have inspections, and inspections in advance.
So, when a buyer is looking at our portfolios part of the stabilization is the condition is adequate for occupancy and it is occupied, or at least whichever ones are vacant are being turned over. But it’s a largely occupied and performing portfolio.

And from the condition standpoint we do a video, a full-blown interior/exterior video, of every unit. And we have a third party inspector inspect every unit. So, at least you know, and that’s kind of the point. How stabilized it is can be up to interpretation, but how transparent it is is what’s important.

Otherwise, if I’m going to buy a tape, right, if I’m going to buy a portfolio of houses that’s a discount bulk sale, I’m going to find out what I’ve got when I got home. It’s almost like Storage Wars: you buy a storage facility and shine a flashlight in it for 30 seconds and then you buy, you open it up and find out what you’ve got. We’re not in that business. We’re in a “no surprises” approach. So, if the condition is not good, the buyer knows it’s not good and it’s baked into their offer then.

Mike: Yes. And so, talk a little bit about who is buying these packages.

Greg: That’s a good question. The people, the first round of portfolios are who you’d expect, people that have raised capital-a lot of it, other people’s money, Wall Street capital. We met a lot of people; I’ll put it this way, over the last couple of years that were drawn into the housing market because of what has happened since the housing crisis, the Blackstones and all the other founding fathers of institutional single family.
We drew a lot of other people who had raised capital and hit the ground in 2012, okay? And now it’s not the same situation as it was back in 2010, and they didn’t have a plan. They have $10 million; they’re looking for a way to spend their $10 million and showing them a package in Nashville of eight houses they can take down in one shot is extremely attractive to them because they didn’t have a strategy for acquisition.

So, that’s the majority of our buyers right now, people who raise the money, are looking for easy ways to get in, the lowest risk possible, and have reasonable expectations on yield. They’re not trying to buy something they’re going to get value out of right away because of condition or distress. They want to be able to trade a dollar for a yield and that’s what stabilized does for you.
But we’re starting to see inklings of people, the high net worth people, who are looking for an alternative investment and believe in housing, but aren’t going to get their hands that dirty, but this is different. There’s a management company in place already; maintenance and preservation is already in place. And so, it’s kind of taken the barrier from all the way up to only halfway maybe for them, because they still have to pay attention.

Mike: Yes.

Greg: And they’re starting to show up, so we’re still in the early stages. Our dream is to activate a lot of those individual entrepreneurs out there who have some capital, want to get some debt on it, and then want to go out and build themselves a nest egg.

Mike: Okay. Let’s talk a little bit about your role at Own America and kind of aggregating these and facilitating this whole thing. You’ve got a network of agents that you’ve trained to think like you and think like an institutional buyers and sellers. And effectively I assume they earn commissions by transactions just like an agent normally would.

Greg: Right.

Mike: And talk a little bit about your role in the business side of your company and kind of how you effectively make money or why this makes sense for you.

Greg: We have a great spot in the market because we have the relationships with the investors and we have the marketing channels to reach investors with our portfolios. That’s one of the benefits of having a national footprint. If I’m looking to spend a half a billion dollars on houses and I want to be all over the country, I can’t get in too deep in a conversation with somebody from Dallas who does Dallas, okay? They have to be able to have a larger footprint. So, we can talk intelligently with a variety of different sized investors who are thinking about the entire country, trying to figure out where they want to go and how they want to get there.
And so, our people on the ground when we source the business, we source most of our own clients through our relationships. Our people on the ground help us service it. We share the commission. Our people on the ground we’ve now shown the way. We have a webinar series with our agents called “Don’t Do As I Say, Do As I Do.” Which is, we got tired of begging you guys to use these tools, so we went out and started using them, and we’re selling thousands of houses a year. So, now we know it works, just do what we’re doing. And they’re starting to source sellers, regional sellers who have 25 to 250; 185 we listed this week in Florida, coming in from people we have in the field.
So, it’s a beautiful relationship between human intelligence and boots on the ground down there, and then a national, single point of contact up here with the marketing and the relationships to tie it together.

Mike: And I presume you’re quickly realizing that the bottleneck is finding deals. There’s probably more money available than deals, is that true?

Greg: That’s true, and the way we’re handling that is we’ve never really been about deals. We’re about yields. And yield is actually pretty easy to find.
Now, one of the things that’s evolving, and this is not going to be a perfect match for necessarily the audience that watches your show, but it helps them to understand what’s out there.

Mike: Right.

Greg: There are a lot of investment categories that people are perfectly happy to make a 10% return on a dependable, predictable outcome. Okay? That’s a hell of a great investment. That’s what single families do, and all day long. You’re talking about, I can go almost anywhere in the country, and without breaking a sweat, find a low of a 4% yield in Washington, D.C. suburbs or New York suburbs to a high of a 9%, moving condition, don’t break a sweat.
And then when you add a couple of points of home price appreciation onto it, which you can almost do everywhere, and sometimes you can add 3, 3.5, or 4 points of home price appreciation. Now you’ve got an unlevered 10, and unlevered eight. You put a little leverage on it and you’re at 10 or 11 or 12. There are a lot of people that consider that to be just fine. And so, we don’t really deal with folks who are looking for an 18 or 20 or 25% return, because in our experience realtors don’t find that. My network is made up of realtors, and they don’t find those kinds of deals and then serve them up to somebody else. Okay?

Mike: Right.

Greg: If they have those kinds of deals they serve them up to people who are close to them and their tight clientele; or if they have any sense in their head they’d take it themselves.
If I know somebody who wants to sell a house for 60% of its value, then why would I tell anybody that?

Mike: Right.

Greg: So, to be a deal getter you have to be somebody who actually knows how to find them yourself. We look at the marketplace at face value, and then find investors who are satisfied with face value. Does that make sense?

Mike: Yes. And you guys are helping put in place or establishing…I know a lot of the turnkey folks generally part of their model is that they are either in property management themselves or they are partnered with somebody else that is managing in that market. You mentioned that property management is already in place. You essentially are offering a connection there?

Greg: Yes. Well, the portfolios that we list are currently being managed by somebody, and 80% of the cases being managed by a third party. And 20% of the cases are being managed by the owner. In the case where it’s a third party, they are happy to keep that client.

Mike: Sure.

Greg: So, the last thing you want to hear as a property manager is that your client who has 100 houses under your management is going to sell it. So, property managers want to stay engaged in the process so they maintain the client after it transitions. So, 100% of the time the management is in place. In the case where the owner is the manager, we ask them to give us a transition period, six months, where you hang onto it and transition it over to the new manager. But it isn’t that hard to find a competent property manager in most of the cities that we see the action in. And they are eager for us to refer them and hook them into the business.

Mike: Sure.

Greg: So, it’s a key component, but it’s not hard to put in place.

Mike: Yes, and I think that’s getting better than ever with the likes of some of the franchise models that are out there. At least you know more of what you’re getting with property management in most major markets across the country at this point.

Greg: And the mobile technology and the cloud collaboration, it is so much different than it was five years ago in terms of being able to be there, in touch with your portfolio without physically being there.

Mike: Absolutely. I mean, with what you’re doing and what the institutional players have been doing over the past few years, is really the first time that this market has changed significantly in forever.

Greg: Right.

Mike: It seems like one of the benefits for guys like me, individual investors that have been buying one property at a time, generally, for a long time, is that a big part of the opportunity has always been how inefficient the market is.

Greg: Right.

Mike: And with technology and with all the stuff we just talked about institutional players, it’s becoming more and more efficient. It’s nowhere close to efficient, but it’s becoming more efficient. So, talk a little bit about how you see that continuing to evolve in terms of whether the opportunity will still be available for the little guy, which is most of the market.

Greg: I think the little guy-I didn’t mean to cut you off, but

Mike: No, no.

Greg: But the little guy; if the efficiency makes it tougher to find opportunities, that’s funny, because I hadn’t thought of that. That for the person who’s looking for the deals, having a more efficient process is actually maybe going to be a detriment. But, the upside of that coin is that what is now understood about the housing market is light-years ahead of where it was just five years ago, the quality of institutional data, rental data, expense data. I know what the yields are in 75 cities in America at face value, and I’m not the only one who knows.
But five years ago, nobody really had that kind of view in terms of having that. The analogy that I use is that they didn’t build the Internet so that you and I could buy a pair of sneakers online. They built it for much more important, larger purposes. But yet we can now buy sneakers online, okay?

Mike: Right.

Greg: So, there are small investors that never would have had the resources to build what has been built by and for the big guys, but now it’s available to everybody. And so, the efficiency now, you have to change your game, all right, that’s being an entrepreneur is all about: changing your game a little bit. And a great example of that is you couldn’t get financing on a portfolio to do acquisitions in the past. You couldn’t get good, solid…I mean, we’re talking about 6.5, 6.25, 30-year amortization debt that is looking at the rent role as the justification for it. You’ve got crowd funding out there right now, which is having a whole new influence on raising money for real estate opportunities.

Mike: Absolutely.

Greg: A couple of years ago, it was learn the courthouse steps, find the off-market deals, and find the foreclosure flow coming through the agents and whatever. The situation evolves, efficiency ultimately is good, and all of those tools that have been developed now that are available to the small investor, I think, are going to even put them ahead of the equation.

Mike: I think, generally speaking, what I’ve seen is it has gotten harder to find deals now. I primarily operate in the Dallas market; Texas is just hot. It’s probably as hard to buy deals here as anywhere, but when we get them we’re definitely selling them at premium prices than we were in the past.

Greg: Right.

Mike: Even the types of deal that we would wholesale or sell to somebody that’s going to keep it as a rental, they are evaluating deals very differently to where they’re willing to pay much more than a typical investor was even just a couple of years ago.

Greg: So, there’s the opportunity. Instead of buying that deep in, buying that much of a discount, you’re now in a position to be able to find people who want to premium, and that’s what our role of this world is. We’ve created the first generation of marketing channels, to reach a global audience of investors that have more modest expectations that you do in terms of return. Okay? You’re not an entrepreneur; you’re making bigger returns. These are folks who are comparing what we’re offering to a 2% bond someplace else.

Mike: Right.

Greg: Or a Chinese investor who’s wondering if their business is going to be nationalized and their money is going to be taken away. I mean, there are a lot of different strategies out there that we just are pulling single family closer down the continuum to a stable, more modest return on investment, and finding just enormous amounts of capital out there that want those kinds of stable returns, and where a single family shines. In the category of conservative long-term, single-family shines compared to other investment categories.

Mike: Yes. And the types of returns that are being offered from the stabilized portfolios, how do they compare to multi-family? And the reason I ask is that there are a lot of folks, even myself, I’ve always done single family. But multi-family appeals to me because I can apply a bunch of capital at once.

Greg: Right.

Mike: Buying houses one at a time the way I do is a hustle, and it’s really never going to get that much easier. And so, when folks want to come in and apply large chunks of money, they tend to look at more commercial type properties.

Greg: Right.

Mike: But this is a way around that, right?

Greg: That’s the beauty of portfolios, right, and the beauty of stabilized portfolios. You are buying 20, 40 units at a clip, and the way it compares to multi-family is that multi-family yields have been compressed because ever since the beginning of the housing crisis, everybody knew rental demand was at a peak. And how do you play a massive increase in rental demand? You buy multi-family because, again, our industry had not yet been created. So, you couldn’t go out and buy clusters of single family, they were leased. So, you buy an occupied multi-family, which drives prices up.

Mike: Right.

Greg: It compressed cap rates. And so, I think we compare very well, because one of the things that multi-family investors used to say is, “Managing single family is impossible. The houses are all over the place. It’s impossible.” There’s a man on the moon, and yet we can’t manage a bunch of front yards that are spread out. So, that code has been cracked; people have proven that you can manage and maintain single-family homes, and if they’re geographically clustered, all the better. And that’s whom we’re tapping. We’re finding them.
You asked me who the buyers were. We’re cultivating buyers who were saying, “How many multi-family buildings are you negotiating for right now?” You can’t even find any product for sale, because nothing’s for sale. How about this portfolio single family and they say, you know, “No, I don’t want to, but maybe I should think about this, because it does make sense.” The objections of another era don’t apply anymore.

Mike: Obviously one of the best benefits of a portfolio of single family houses is they are much easier to liquidate when it comes time to harvest them.

Greg: Exactly. You have a different exit; you can peel these things off. If you want to make a tax payment, peel one of them off and sell it to whatever, send a kid to college.

Mike: Right. Awesome. So, where do you see things going with just generally with institutional players, and the industry that you’ve really created here?

Greg: I appreciate getting credit for creating the industry, and I’ll take a pass.

Mike: Well, Al Gore created the Internet. We were just talking about the Internet, so yeah, you might as well take credit for this.

Greg: Well, you know what, we saw it coming early and we took a nice position in it. And so, it’s a lot of fun and exciting. And where I see, we’ve crossed over the point of no return, okay? It isn’t going back; it’s now known and well measured that there are 15 million rental households and single-family homes in America. That’s the peak. The trough 30 years ago was 8.5 million.
It’s not a unique thing to the housing crisis that just got a little bump from that. The microscope that Wall Street put on the housing market for these companies that have now gone public as REITs, so single family REITs. In the bond issues, there are now companies, several of them, that have offered bonds that are backed by rental streams.
So, instead of mortgage-backed securities it’s rental-backed securities, and they are selling well. And they’re going to perform, okay. The beauty of it is that the Wall Street microscope is now on housing, and just like you and I would have predicted, they like what they see. Right? And it is single-family homes in America.
People think this sounds like sort of fluffy, but it’s single-family homes in America. It’s the shelter over the most stable part of our population, which is families, people with kids. The population is growing in America. This is not rocket science, okay. The demand is so built in and guaranteed to be growing that learning it, understanding it, you know, what was in my book, which is what motivates me and drives me in this, is that everyday people have an ability to understand. If you have common sense, you can get the housing market. You understand more about it than you think.

If you send you kids to school in a school district you know more about the fundamental drivers of growth and future prosperity in that community; Rental demand, housing demand. You know so much, and now you can learn even more, that the more people that experience the wealth creation of housing versus everything else, the more capital is going to flow into it. In other words, our story is not a bunch of PR fluff, okay?

Mike: Right.

Greg: Our story is substantive and it’s real–not our story, our story, collectively, the housing market. I didn’t call this company Investorama, okay? I called it Own America because that’s the power of what it is that we’re offering people, that you learn your market, you have reason to believe the population will keep growing because it’s a good place to live. You buy housing in there and rent it out, have it managed efficiently. And if you hang onto it, it’s going to create wealth.

Mike: That’s awesome, Greg. Well, it’s an exciting space, and I appreciate your time today, sharing your insights.

Greg: And I appreciate it, and it’s great to be here.

Mike: For folks who want to learn more about Own America, whether they’re interested in possibly buying or selling, where do they go?

Greg: Just go to Own America.com.

Mike: Okay.

Greg: It’s all right there.

Mike: Easy enough, and we’ll have a link below the video here, but obviously it’s OwnAmerica.com. Greg, thanks so much for your time today. I definitely appreciate it.

Greg: I appreciate it, and thank you.

Mike: I look forward to talking with you again soon.

Greg: Same here.

Mike: All right, bye-bye.
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