Real Estate Goddess

Mike: Welcome to the FlipNerd.com podcast. This is your host, Mike Hambright. And on this show, I will introduce you to VIPs in the real estate investing industry, as well as other interesting entrepreneurs whose stories and experiences can help you take your business to the next level. We have three new shows each week, which are available in the iTunes store or by visiting FlipNerd.com. So, without further ado, let’s get started.
Hey, it’s Mike Hambright. Welcome back to the FlipNerd VIP Flip Show. Today, I have with me Vena Jones-Cox, who is the Real Estate Goddess. She’s an experienced real estate investor. Talks a lot about creative buying and teaches others to do what she does. She’s a wealth of knowledge. Before we get started with our interview today, let’s take a moment to recognize our featured sponsors.

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Hey, Vena. Welcome to the show.

Vena: Hey, good to be here. [Inaudible 00:02:00] Skype.

Mike: Yeah. Hey, it’s a new world.

Vena: I can see you.

Mike: Yeah, it’s a new world out there. I knew when my grandparents started using Skype to talk to their grandkids, that we were in for something special. First, it was Facebook, then it’s Skype.

Vena: So, I’m behind your grandparents is what you’re telling me? But I’m catching up.

Mike: You’re catching up, yeah. Well, they have nothing but time on their hands, so that’s the difference. But glad to have you on the show. So, for those that don’t you, why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you. And first, we need to find out is how you got the tagline “Real Estate Goddess.” Is that self-claimed or somebody else gave that to you?

Vena: That’s actually a very short story. It was around 1996, and I was driving to a speaking engagement. And my partner and my husband and I were joking about how everyone at that time was giving themselves a name. “Mr. Landlord,” “Mr. Pre-foreclosure.” King of this, Queen of that.
And they said, “You need a nickname.” And I said, “I’m not going to be the queen of anything. I’m going to be the goddess.” And that was kind of it. My partner went home and printed up business cards that said “The Real Estate Goddess.” Over- projections, by the way. And that’s just sort of been what it’s been ever since.

Mike: You know, I wear a few different hats. But with one of the hats that I wear, I talk to people a lot about, in real estate investing, the importance to brand yourself. To stand out from the masses. So, that’s kind of interesting. Awesome.
Well, tell us a little bit about you and your background. I know you have a ton of great experience and teach others to do what you do. But for those that don’t know you, tell us a little bit about your history and what you’re doing now.

Vena: Well, I’ve been investing in real estate full time for 25 years. I went to college, went to work in corporate America. I thought that was my path. I was there for about six weeks. Yes. And by mutual agreement with my boss, we both decided I was unemployable and having nothing better to do at that point, I went to work what I thought was temporarily in my father’s rental business and I did not want to be a landlord. I grew up with that. I grew up with the one phone in the house that rings at 11:30 at night and you answer it anyway because there’s someone telling you there’s a fire or the roof’s leaking or something like that.

Mike: Or there’s a light bulb that’s burnt out.

Vena: Exactly. Or they’re drunk and they want to know why you gave them a three-day notice for not paying their rent and they’re angry. So, I watched my parents kind of…not really struggle financially. But really, they were mom and pop landlords and they didn’t spend money. They cut every corner.
Now, of course, when there are 150 properties paid off when they were in their 50s and 60s, they were doing very well. But none of that appealed to me. So, it was just sort of an in-between job while I was waiting to figure out what I really wanted to do with my life.
And then, I went to a local REA meeting. And I heard somebody talking about something called wholesaling. Which, my first reaction to that was, “That has to be illegal. It can’t possibly be okay to take a check away from a closing for $3,000 or $5,000.” Remember, this was 1991 and that was a lot of money to get on a house you don’t even own.
But I sprung for boot camp. I went out and learned about it. I came home and I told my dad, “We should be doing this.” And he said, “There’s no way. You have to pay taxes when you do that. Why would you want to pay taxes?” I said, “That’s what I want to do and it’s not what you want to do, so, I quit, dad.”
And I went in to start my own business in late ’91, early ’92 and have been doing it ever since. And it’s not just that I wholesale. I do a lot of other things, too because wholesaling is awesome but cash has a way of being spent. And also, as my father was bright enough to point out, being very highly taxed. So, I also own rentals, I buy properties and sell them with owner financing. I occasionally will buy a defaulted note. I’ve done lease options.
So, I do a whole bunch of different things. But wholesaling is the thing that people seem to know me for because when I come and speak at their associations, that’s always what the group leaders want me to speak about.

Mike: Yeah. Well, you kind of imagine, a lot of REA clubs attract a lot of newbies. And newbies tend to be attracted to wholesaling. And I’m sure a lot of those tricks you have in your bag of tricks are things you learned over time.

Vena: Mm-hmm. Very true.

Mike: Yeah. We were talking before we started recording here, just for everybody’s that listening, about how important it is. It’s like a double-edged sword. You need to have lots of kind of tools in your toolbox, if you will. But if you try to get started that way, you probably get paralyzed by there being…you’re just not going to have the knowledge. There’s no way you’re going to have the knowledge or experience to know how to do all of those things.
So, why don’t you share some of your thoughts for the newer folks that are listening that are attracted to wholesaling? But just talk a little bit about the importance of finding a way to monetize deals in other ways so that you can effectively make more money.

Vena: The thing that attracts people about wholesaling is that it’s sort of the simplest strategy, in terms of how much knowledge you really have to have to do it. Don’t hear me say, “None.” Because people who go out and try to do it with no knowledge or the wrong knowledge, they mess it up not just for themselves, but for their buyers and sellers as well.
But compared to something like landlording or rehabbing, the number of things you need to know is relatively small. So, I think that and the fact that if you’re doing it correctly, you don’t really need money or credit is the huge attraction. But there comes a point where you start seeing deals where you say, “There’s got to be a way to make that work and it’s not wholesaling. The seller just can’t take little enough for me to make this work. But he said something about taking payments, but I have no idea what that means or what to do with it.”
So, one of the things that I tell wholesalers is if that’s what you’ve decided that you want to do and that should be based on some logical decision, not because some guru said it was the best thing. Because you need the cash or you need to build up the experience or you’ve got debts to pay that need to be taken care of before you can seriously start thinking about buying properties.
Focus on that until you understand it and you’ve gone out and done it. And you feel like I can do this again and again. And that’s only going to be about your third deal where you say, “Oh, all right. I get it. It’s the same thing every time.”
But at that point, you want to start cross training by going to your local REA meetings, even when the speaker is talking about landlording. And if for no other reason then that your customers are people who are doing other things. When you’re a wholesaler, your buyers are not wholesalers. They’re landlords, they’re rehabbers, they’re people who do lease options. And just understanding what they’re hearing and what they’re thinking helps you be a better wholesaler.
And then, you start picking it up enough to say, “Okay, wait a minute. This guy wants to take payments. And I know I can rent this house for $800 a month and he’ll take $300 a month and I know how to work the numbers so that I can actually buy that house and hold onto it for long-term income and have some of the depreciation to offset some of my wholesaling income.”
So, if you try and learn it all at once, my experience is you will do less by taking ten different classes on ten different topics and trying to do them all than if you just do one and really focus on that until you’ve done it. And it’s pure paralysis of analysis.
And I think there’s actually kind of a cycle there where sometimes, you’re doing it because you don’t want to go do the hard part of talking to sellers and telling them you can’t pay them what they want to be paid and going out and looking at deals and not being 100% sure you can evaluate them right, so you go take the next class because it’s easier.
And sometimes, it’s sort of the opposite thing that if you’d only try to grasp one, you’d be fine. But now, you know ten things to do a little bit. And every deal, you can think of nine different things to do and you don’t know which one to do, so you just don’t ever do anything.

Mike: Yeah. I gave a talk just recently at the REI Expo. And somebody asked a question along the lines of, “How do I get deals?” He didn’t say this, but, “How do I get deals with doing no work.” I was like, “Well, that’s just not going to happen. I don’t teach that.”
I’ve always told people this is not an easy business. This is a hard business. You’ve got to get out and do things. But you sense people sometimes that start asking, they’re just trying to get started and they start talking about some complex transaction. That you’re just like, “You’re screwed.” If that’s how you’re trying to start, you’re going to hit a wall.

Vena: There are certain types of strategies that if you don’t have a certain background…and it doesn’t necessarily have to be a real estate background. I’ve seen people who are former mortgage brokers do really well in notes because they just have a basic understanding of how the returns work and so on.
But when you’re taking a brand-new, wide-eyed newbie who’s never been inside a property to inspect it and say, “Well, you’re going to do default and commercial notes in the $10 million range.” Okay.

Mike: Yeah. And people ask me all the time; we’ve done pretty well. We’ve bought hundreds of houses in the last few years. I literally have either wholesaled, rehabbed or kept as a rental every one. I’ve never done anything with notes. I’ve never seller-financed. I’ve never done anything with mobile homes or multi-family.
And people ask me all the time for advice in those areas and I say, “I don’t have it.” I’ve stayed kind of pure. I’ve tried to stay as simple as possible, because that keeps me busy enough, especially since I tend to rehab a lot. I tend to be one of those guys that has a death wish of some sort that’s rehabbing a lot. So, do you rehab much, Vena?

Vena: Not much. Obviously, anyone who’s a landlord rehabs because of tenants. But in terms of actually intentionally going out and buying a house in order to renovate it and resell it, I get sucked in about once every 18 months to two years. It’s always because, “This one’s going to be easy.” And I just don’t have the personality for it.
I’m the one who walks in when it’s 99% finished and finds 900 other things that we didn’t notice when we [inaudible 00:12:35].

Mike: Yeah. I’m closing on a house today and three this Friday that we’re all rehabbing. So, we’ve got lots of projects going on at once. But to be fair, I have a lot of systems down. I have a great contractor. I have a great team to kind of handle a lot of that stuff.
But I’m one of those people that started off wholesaling and then started to see how much money I was leaving on the table by selling it to the next guy and saying…not so much maybe I can make more money, overall, which I do. But it’s like on some level, you can do less deals.
In this business, the hardest part for me has always been finding deals and for a lot of folks. And so, it’s like, “Well, maybe if I can squeeze more juice out of each piece of fruit, I don’t need to find as many pieces of fruit, I guess.” But, yeah. Everybody has their own niche, I guess.

Vena: I think the people who do well in rehabbing enjoy it on some personal level. They like taking the ugly house and turning it into the pretty house. And whatever that thrill is, I don’t feel it. So, for me, it’s not the right strategy.

Mike: Yeah, that is true. When I first started, we started through the HomeVestors system. I really knew nothing about wholesaling. Conceptually, it made sense and basically learned to love it very early on because you need to ring the register and you need that cash flow to operate your business.
But you’re right. There was always something in me. I think when I grew up my dad was very handy. It was always rehabbing or tinkering on our house. I worked in the Midwest at a Menards for four years, which is the Midwest equivalent of the Home Depot.
And I just was always around people doing stuff. And now, granted, I can’t even tell you where a hammer is. I do nothing myself. But I’ve always liked the transformation or the kind of, I guess, just the idea of kind of building or fixing or repairing.

Vena: You’ve got to have that.

Mike: And like you said…for wholesalers and I just talked to a large group this past weekend, it’s critical that they know how to rehab. They don’t need to know how to do the things. But they really need to correctly diagnose the cost. Because as a wholesaler, if you don’t…there are wholesalers, I probably receive at least 10 or 20 deals a day from other wholesalers via e-mail. And I have them all set up so they all go into a folder, which I look at periodically.
But there are certain ones that, over time, I route them. So, any e-mail from that person, I either unsubscribe or just send that to the trash. Because I never believe that person’s numbers. So, why don’t you share your thoughts a little bit on the importance of, from your own personal brand and reputation, the importance of kind of valuing repairs properly so that you don’t get a bad name?

Vena: Well, it’s interesting because there is no repair number. If you take ten rehabbers and line them up against the wall and say, “What’s it going to cost to fix this house,” you’re going to get ten numbers. But it’s going to be a bell curve, right? You’re going to get the guy over here who does all the work himself and buys all his stuff used and takes 10 times as long as everybody else, but only spends 30% as much.
And then, you’ve got the guy over here that doesn’t have good resources and his furnace guy is charging him $5,000 to put in a 2-ton furnace. And then, you’ve got the folks up here, which are the ones you have to focus on. You can’t worry about these or these over here.
So, at the top of the bell curve, there’s going to be maybe a 10 to 20% swing between what this guy says and what this guy says the rehab costs are going to be. And if you are within 10%, they’re going to respect that. They’re going to understand that, “Okay, this is a difference of opinion. This is a difference of what kind of windows do we put in the house?” Not “Can you really put a window in a house for $50,” right?
So, you’ve got to understand what people in your market are paying, and it does vary from market to market. In fact, what people will do varies from market to market. I remember doing a wholesale academy one time in Orlando. And my guy who helps me teach the rehab part, we were wandering around and we’re counting the windows in the house to replace them because there are all these casement metal [inaudible 00:16:43] windows.
And that night, just to double-check, we took a local rehabber around. And he said, “Why would you replace those?” We said, “Because they’re not insulated.” “We live in Orlando, we don’t replace windows here. It just doesn’t get cold enough to bother to do that.”
So, you have to understand what the expectations are in your local market. And the best way to do that is just start with a list. I mean, there’s really only about 50 common repair items that you’re going to run across. And start a list of those and your best guess is as to what the labor and material costs are.
And then, go to your meet up, go to your local REA group. Run a third of the lists past somebody and say, “Does this look right? Is this what you’re paying?” And do that two or three times and ask questions.
And you will get some people who say, “Oh, it only costs me $175 an opening to put in a window,” and somebody else says it costs $300. “Well, why does it cost you $300?” “Well, I put in the best windows because I find that that sells the properties better.” And I talked to the guy at $175 and he’s like, “They don’t care. The buyers don’t care.”
So, there is a lot of opinion in there. But you come out with an average that most of your buyers aren’t saying you’re insane. And you go with that and that’s all you can do.
And even after all these years… I have a good reputation. When people get my e-mails, they go see my properties. They don’t [inaudible 00:18:08].

Mike: That’s great. And it differs a lot even by neighborhood. I mean, in my market, I have houses that I’m selling for $40,000 and some I’m selling for $400,000. So, the repairs are very different. You’re more likely to replace windows and put in nicer appliances and higher-dollar houses and lower-dollar houses, single pane, maybe even old wood windows with ten layers of paint are still okay. It kind of depends on how you price it as well, if you’re trying to price it to move quickly and somebody is going to do the work themselves.
So, when you talk to folks through some of your teaching, what do you often tell people? The reality is, there is a lot of people in our business that just never get out of the gate. They may have a ton of interest, but they just don’t know how to get started. And that kind of paralyzes them as well. So, what advice do you give to folks that are looking to get started that can’t seem to get started?

Vena: So, this is a four-hour show, right?

Mike: Well, this is part one, so…

Vena: Well, this is actually something that I’ve been really interested in and increasingly so, the more I’ve dealt with people. Because not only do I coach people, I’m also the past president of our local real estate association and of the Ohio Real Estate Association, the National Real Estate Association and I speak to groups.
And every group leader and instructor is asking that same question. Why is it that you can take two people of equal intelligence, backgrounds, resources, teach them exactly the same thing, and one of them will run out and make a huge success of themselves and the other one will never do a deal?
And I think the simple answer that everybody gives is, “Oh, it’s fear. They can’t get past the fear.” The fear of what? It seems to me like all the answers are too simplistic. But I think the question that you have to ask yourself if you’re finding yourself stuck in the gate, is, “At which step are you stuck?”
Because it’s not the same thing for everybody. For some people, it’s, “I can’t seem to get my marketing out.” Well, that tells me you don’t really want to talk to sellers and I want to know why. What is it that’s scaring you about that?” Some people are putting properties under contract, but they’re not able to sell them. And that tells me that there’s something going on with your evaluation process. Either you don’t know how to value the properties or you don’t know how to value the repairs and you’re putting them at a contract for the wrong price.
So, it kind of depends on what does “not out of the gate” mean? And I think a big chunk of it is, as I coach people one-on-one, where you can really get down into, “You said last week you were going to make 20 offers. It’s a week later and you’ve made zero. What’s the reason?” And you can really start digging into that.
I think a lot of people, they have competing commitments where, on some level, they’re afraid that if they’re successful, something bad is going to happen. I actually had this response from someone one time. I said, “What is it that you think about rich people? Tell me what rich people are like?” And she said, “Well, they’re thoughtless and they’re mean and they’re snotty and they’re elitist.”
And I said, “Okay, so I see why you don’t want to get rich. You don’t want to be one of those people.”

Mike: Yeah. That’s funny.

Vena: So, you have to think about, are there things that you are afraid will happen if you are successful? “I’m going to have less time to spend with my family. My extended family will be jealous because they’re all poor and I’m rich. My friends won’t like me anymore. I’ll be snotty.” Because I think that sort of hang-up is probably the biggest reason that, otherwise normal, intelligent people can learn everything there is to know about these strategies and still not implement them in an effective way, even when they’re told step by step how to do it.

Mike: Right. Right. Yeah. I think just generally speaking, there are a lot of people that aren’t willing to do what it takes. I mean, it’s not an easy business.
The unfortunate thing is there’s a lot of training out there that’s kind of conditioned people to think that this is an easy business. You can lay on the beach and check your mailbox every once in a while and there’s a bunch of money in there. You and I both know it doesn’t work that way.

Vena: Run from any sales pitch that says that. Because it just is not so.

Mike: Yep. Yep. What are you seeing in the market; every market is different. In Cincinnati, where you’re at, it’s different than a lot of other places. But just generally speaking, there’s obviously been a resurgence in the investor. It’s a hot market. In a lot of markets, the hedge funds have made it difficult for a lot of independent folks to buy deals because they’re getting soaked up.
But there are all these kind of trends going on. What are you seeing right now and I guess what do you see happening over the next year or two in terms of just general opportunities and competition and things like that?

Vena: Well, the hedge funds are starting to drop out of a lot of markets. We’ve actually started to see that here, although they came late to Ohio. Ohio and Michigan and Indiana are sort of radioactive on a national scale. For years, after the crash, I was hearing hard money lenders saying, “We will lend everywhere on the planet except Ohio, Michigan and Indiana.” So, we had that going on for a while.
And then, the hedge funds really liked the “A” markets and the bubble markets like Phoenix and California. They moved into Florida. And then, they finally got here and they pulled out of those other markets sooner, too. But we’re starting to see them pull back here because what they do is they drive the prices up to the points where the returns don’t make sense given their own internal spreadsheets.
And as with every other place in the country, we’ve seen a drop- off in year over year sales this spring. If you look at this spring versus last spring, they dropped about 7%. But at the same time, our on-market inventory, by which I mean MLS inventory, is way down. We’re used to seeing…when you log in and you see the hot sheet where there’s all the new listings, we’re used to seeing 170 new listings in the last 24 hours. And I log on the other day and there were 24 listings in the last 24 hours.
And that has a lot to do with…there are fewer foreclosures. Also, the banks are doing other things with a lot of them. They’re bulking them out or they’re bulking them out as note packages, so they’re never getting to MLS.
But the way our business has shifted is in ’05 and ’06, we were getting most of our deals from marketing directly to sellers who had unlisted properties. And in ’08, we bought 100% of the properties we bought from banks out of MLS. Why would you send out a postcard when the banks were giving away properties on MLS? And that continued through 2009 and 2010. And then in 2011, about middle of the year, we started seeing the properties staying on the market less time and selling for more money. And by 2012, we had ramped our seller marketing back up.
And in 2013, we bought zero properties out of MLS. And it wasn’t that we weren’t making offers. It was that, as you said, the hedge funds had their agents running around snatching everything up that met certain criteria. And that meant that the renovators couldn’t find anything because the hedge funds are buying in the same bread and butter areas that the renovators like.
So, they were paying more to get the properties and it just got to where a wholesaler was going to have a hard time finding a property in MLS. And we made offers. We probably made 80, 90, 100 offers that year, but just nothing got accepted at the prices that we were looking for.
So, last year and this year, it’s been 100% marketing to sellers. And it’s still going great. There are still lots of motivated sellers out there. They’re just not falling into that category of bank-owned properties anymore.

Mike: Right. Right. And where do you see things going over the next year or two? I mean, a lot of newer wholesalers that came in…I think there are a lot of real estate agents that you said kind of…when the MLS dried up, they started coming into our traditional market of where I am, which has always been marketing to sellers. And we’re seeing a lot more competition there than ever.
And as the hedge funds dry up, then some of those folks will start to go away. But as kind of a broad brush across the country, what do you see happening in the next one to two years in terms of the opportunity for, let’s just say, for wholesalers?

Vena: Well, Warren Buffett said in his last report to his shareholders that trying to pay attention to any macro trends throughout the country was probably a waste of time because real estate really is…it’s a local market. And I know we had that thing that happened in 2008 that affected the entire country, but that wasn’t actually a real estate thing. That was a financing thing.
So, I think the big overriding question that we’ll just have to see what the answer to is, is what are the hedge funds going to do? Are they going to consolidate so that we have four or five huge rental property owners of single-family homes in the country? Or are they going to do what everybody suspected they would do back when they first started, which was wait until the market sort of tops out and sell. And if they sell, are they going to sell to each other? Or are they going to sell back into the market?
So, if we end up with a handful of huge corporate owners of single-family homes, that’s going to change the rental market as we know it. If the rental market changes, the wholesale market changes. And the retail market changes. So, that’ll be very interesting to see.
Obviously, we are not going to keep seeing this mini bubble continue to expand. I kept referring to it as the bounce, not the recovery of the real estate market. Because the fundamentals just aren’t there. We don’t have significantly increased job growth. There are still millions of people out of work. Interest rates are going up, which always affects house sales and, in fact, has affected first-time homebuyers. There’s still a lot of manipulation of the market going on in Washington. FHA apparently dropped from 43% of the first-time home market to about 22% when they nearly doubled the mortgage insurance premiums.

Mike: Yeah, not a lot of people even know that. That’s crazy. That’s another topic for another show.

Vena: I probably should have confessed at the beginning of the show, I’m a libertarian. That’s not the same thing as an anarchist, for those of you who think it is. It’s just somebody who doesn’t believe that when the government gets involved in manipulating financial markets, it’s a good thing. And the government is very heavily manipulating the financial market, particularly as it relates to real estate.
And some of the things that we’ve seen are not natural. They are a result of the manipulation of interest rates. Of how short sales and loan mods are handled. And when the rug is pulled out from under that, where are we going to be? We’ve still got millions of people with no jobs.
I don’t think we’re headed for another crash. I do think we’re headed for a long period of probably stagnant prices, particularly as interest rates go up. But for the real estate investor who really understands the market as opposed to just understanding what they do, there’s really no such thing as a bad market, right? You buy what other people are selling and sell what other people are buying.
And when 2008 rolled around and all of our wholesale buyers were either terrified to get into the market at all, even though they had been doing it for five years, or were losing their businesses because they had over-leveraged, or were able to get deals so cheaply, that it was like, “Why use a wholesaler,” what we did was we just went out and put properties under contract at such no- brainer prices, that it was irresistible.

When you say to someone, “Look, this house is $10,000. It is rented to a tenant who’s been there for five years at $700 a month. Tell me again why this deal doesn’t make sense no matter what happens to the market? The value could drop to zero and this would still be a good deal.”
You’ve just got to kind of keep going and seeing what’s working and not stick to something that’s not working in one of these cycles. And just understand your market.

Mike: Yeah. And I think that’s something…back to the experience, gaining experience that’s important is, the successful real estate investors that I know all over the country have found a way to ebb and flow when the market changes and they don’t get wiped out because they’re not a one-legged stool. They have multiple ways of doing deals that you just find a way. If the market changes, if laws change, you just find a way there.
Because everybody is always going to need a place to live. They’re not building houses, generally speaking, anymore in rental class neighborhoods because the cost, the build price, is higher than what houses are selling for there.
So, there are entire cities in neighborhoods all over the country that they’re not going to build another house in that neighborhood ever. So, those are where some of the opportunities are for landlords. Yeah. Great.
Well, tell us a little bit about how folks learn more about the Real Estate Goddess. And also, your upcoming Wholesale Academy.

Vena: Well, you can go to my website at regoddess.com. I’ve got some articles up there about different things that, I don’t know, interest me that day. I post them up there.
There’s information about the Wholesale Academy that I’m doing in August, which is a four-day event that kind of goes soup to nuts on how to go out and wholesale properties. You can subscribe to my eLetter. I send out an e-letter every week that both has an article in it and reminds people to listen to my radio show on Wednesday afternoons from 5:00 to 6:00. And that’s on public radio, so it’s all informational and folks seem to like that. So, regoddess.com is the site.

Mike: And on your site, do you tell people where to go for your radio show as well, right?

Vena: Absolutely.

Mike: And your show is also recorded as a podcast in the iTunes store, right?

Vena: It is. If you go to iTunes and look up “Real Life Real Estate,” there are 250 programs and growing. Because the station never takes one down. They just keep adding and adding to them.

Mike: Yeah. Well, you don’t want to remove those podcasts. They’re good forever.

Vena: Yeah. Some of them go back to 2010 where we’re saying, “When is the market going to recover?” So, take the older ones with a little bit of a grain of salt. Things have changed.

Mike: Great. Well, Vena, thanks so much for joining us today and sharing all your info.

Vena: Thanks for the opportunity. I appreciate this.

Mike: We wish you all the best, and we’ll definitely see you around, okay?

Vena: Thank you.

Mike: Have a great day.

Vena: You, too.

Mike: Thanks for joining us on today’s FlipNerd.com podcast. To listen to more of our shows and hear from incredible guests, please access all of our podcasts in the iTunes store. You can also watch the video versions of our shows by visiting us at FlipNerd.com.