Join me for a discussion with Keith Borg, a real estate investor focused CPA and tax strategist. The tax code is as complicated as it gets for real estate investors, and it’s critical to be aligned with a CPA and tax planner that knows what they’re doing! Keith is an active investor himself, and shares with us some great insights on how to stay safe, minimize your tax bill, and align yourself with a solid CPA and tax planner. Don’t miss this show!
Mike: Welcome to the flipnerd.com podcast. This is your host, Mike Hambright, and on this show I will introduce you to VIP’s in the real estate investing industry as well as other interesting entrepreneurs whose stories and experiences can help you take your business to the next level. We have three new shows each week which are available in the iTunes store or by visiting flipnerd.com. So, without further ado, let’s get started.
Hey, this is Mike Hambright with FlipNerd. Welcome back for another FlipNerd VIP interview show. Today I have with me Keith Borg of The Borg Firm. He’s a CPA. He invests in real estate himself, and he’s going to tell us a lot about the importance of having a good accountant and a good tax strategist. We’re going to talk about some of the tax laws that are impacting real estate investors right now and things that are happening in the future.
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Please note, the views and opinions expressed by the individuals in this program do not necessarily reflect those of FlipNerd.com or any of its partners, advertisers or affiliates. Please consult professionals before making any investment or tax decisions as real estate investing can be risky.
Keith, welcome to the show.
Keith: Hello. Good morning.
Mike: How are you doing?
Keith: Doing well. How about yourself?
Mike: Awesome, awesome. Thanks for joining us today. I’ve been… In fact, we have some mutual friends. We haven’t met each other before, and I’m excited to have somebody on the show to talk about some real important issues that a lot of folks, certainly veteran folks, understand the importance of – having a good partner from a tax planning and strategy standpoint, obviously a good accountant. Glad you’re here.
Keith: Thank you. Glad to be here.
Mike: Awesome, awesome. Why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your background, not just as a CPA but also as a real estate investor.
Keith: Sure. I’ve been doing tax returns since 2006. My name is Keith Borg, obviously, and I’m with The Borg Firm, PLLC. I own a local CPA firm here in Dallas, Texas.
Beyond just being a CPA, I’m also an active real estate investor. I first started buying houses in 2010 after I started seeing how great the market was. I realized I did not want to put my own investments into stocks, bonds, mutual funds, that sort of thing. I wanted to be a little more hands on with my investment dollars.
With that, I’ve since gone on to own nine rental properties. I also own some owner financed notes. Then, my better half runs our flipping and wholesale business.
Mike: Okay, okay. Tell us a little bit more about your background. Did you start with Deloitte? I know you spent some time with Deloitte.
Keith: Yes. I started my career in Deloitte, actually in San Francisco. I’m originally from California. Then, I moved here to be here. I moved here for a girl who’s originally from Dallas, Texas.
I moved here and I went on to work for another local CPA firm here for a while which is where I really got hands on with a few investors. What really opened my eyes is I had a client that had 60-something paid off rental houses on his own. He had retired himself by the age of 40. That’s what really opened my eyes to start getting invested in real estate myself.
Mike: Okay, okay. To kind of go out on your own from the entrepreneur side of this to start your own accounting practice, what kind of hit you when you were working with somebody else that you weren’t getting there that you thought you could on your own?
Keith: On my own, one, I like the control, the time, the flexibility. You know, what they say is it’s the entrepreneur that will work 80 hours a week to avoid 40 hours a week with somebody else.
Mike: That’s right, yeah.
Keith: I really do enjoy it. It’s some long hours during tax season, but I really don’t mind it. Because I know over the summer I’m going to be taking more vacation time than I would otherwise do and I will also be able to I guess have the time, be where I need to be when I need to be there.
Mike: Yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah, I definitely agree with the work hard play hard mentality.
Mike: We try to travel a lot. What folks don’t realize is I’m also working seven days a week in some capacity.
Mike: And, even when I vacation, unfortunately, I’m still working. Why don’t you tell us your take a little bit on the difference between, we talked about this a little bit before we started the show, a typical accountant, somebody that can do your books and prepare your taxes and things like that and an actual tax strategist.
Because it seems for a lot of… You know, a lot of newer folks probably think they’re one and the same. Having been in this business for a while, I know that they’re very different in terms of somebody that can help me with tax strategies, understanding what types of legal entities to set up or how to kind of minimize your tax bill and be very strategic about…
Keith: A traditional tax preparer is somebody you take your tax
[Inaudible 0:05:59] to at the end of the year, somewhere probably in March or April. You give them all your stuff. They look through it. They dig through it, and then they hand you back a tax return a couple of weeks later or maybe much later.
There is very little collaboration in terms of what your own personal goals are or what you’re doing. Most tax preparers are just simply trying to maximize your tax savings after the fact.
A tax strategist is more of a tax partnership where you are working with your CPA throughout the year as any sort of big financial decisions come up where you’re able to call that CPA and they are able to help guide you through what your options are so you can help maximize your savings.
Mike: Okay, okay.
Keith: So, in some cases your goal is not always to just simply maximize your tax savings like most people do. For other folks it may be that you want to qualify for loans. So, maybe you decide to not take all your tax deductions legally – because you’re not required to take all your tax deductions – so that you can show a little higher income. It may be more important that you qualify for an additional three or four loans that next year than you get an extra $1,000 off your taxes.
Mike: Right, right, yeah. I think it starts to bring in an element, too, of long term kind of financial planning…
Mike: …as well because there’s definitely some things that at least my wife and I do from a tax planning standpoint that we… It used to be I guess early on we were very transactional. We were worried about that year. Now, we think much more about minimizing our tax bill for the long haul over long periods of time until retirement, things like that.
Keith: With me, I like to sit down with folks just like you or your wife, get an understanding of what your personal goals are, your real estate goals, and kind of talk through how we can merge that with tax strategy for the coming year and what really makes sense for you guys personally. I don’t believe in a one size fits all strategy.
Mike: Oh, sure, sure, yeah. What’s your take on… You know, I talk about this a lot. My wife is our CFO in our investing business. We regularly talk about – I will say they’re not generally happy conversations
– how much time we spend figuring out how much we owe somebody else, which is the tax man usually. It seems like it’s good for accountants, tax planners, but for individual entrepreneurs it really is a shame how much time we spend and how complex the tax code is.
Keith: Y eah. We all have our specialties. People will specialize and have a career in different parts of business. My focus has been real estate taxation. This is going to sound kind of lame, but I really do read at least I always have one book going at a time about either real estate investment strategy or some sort of tax strategy. It sounds boring for others, but for me that I spend my entire career doing this, that’s my goal.
I can never stop learning. I’m always learning something new. So, as soon as I hear something that I’m not familiar with, I’m going out researching it in the tax code and figuring out the best way to take advantage of the tax code. As much as everybody thinks it may be black and white, with 80,000 pages of tax code out there things are bound to conflict some time. Trying to go through that mud can be quite a task sometimes.
Mike: Yeah, yeah. Not necessarily your style, I’m not sure exactly what that is, but I’ve worked with different accountants and tax planners and things like that over time. There are definitely people that their mentality is on one spectrum or the other. I want to do whatever I can to make sure we’re never audited. Or, if I’m audited this is how I’m going to respond to that question. Because it’s such a gray area that I’m going to take it to the line. I’m not going to take it over the line, but I’m going to take it to the line every time.
Now, by nature, I think that more accountants tend to be very conservative in nature. Some tips that I’ve gotten in the past are you want generally… Again, not to, I don’t know your background…
Mike: …in terms of that, but you generally want people that are not afraid to be audited, because if not they’re probably leaving your money on the table somewhere. Any thoughts on the kind of differences between accountants?
Keith: Yeah. For me, I will match my investment, my tax preparation style, with the investor or with the client. I will get a feel for what their tolerance is for that risk, and we’ll go from there.
Because I’ve got some clients… For example, this last year I had a couple who made about $180,000 and gave $70,000 to their church. They knew that if they deducted $70,000 it could be an audit flag. So, they decided they only wanted to deduct $10,000.
I, however, had seen the documentation, had seen the letter, had seen the cancelled checks to the church, so I knew without a doubt that they had truly given $70,000 to their church. If it were me personally I’d go ahead and take that deduction, and then if I got audited I would deal with it at that point.
Keith: However, as a CPA part of what I’m doing in educating my clients is how to manage that audit risk. One of my biggest tips is to try and get things off your individual tax return and use some sort of partnership or S-corporation to run your business through instead.
Your chances of being audited as an individual if you’re making
$200,000 or more was 2.7 percent for 2013. However, if you got it off onto a partnership or S-corp return you were down to .42 percent. That’s a six or seven fold difference in terms of your audit risk. Trying to manage that audit risk and understand that audit risk, any time you can get things off our individual return it’s going to greatly reduce that audit. Even if you’re right in an audit, they’re still expensive to go through, and they’re a real hassle.
Mike: Yeah, yeah, I can personally vouch for that. Most importantly, your opportunity cost of your time you spend going through an audit, especially if it’s a major one…
Mike: I mentioned to you we went through a major audit last year. Found no wrongdoing, but it still took us ten months of our time to dredge through a bunch of stuff. Not fun, not fun.
Mike: One of the things that I wanted to talk about is more specifically some of the tax changes, recent changes and things that are impacting real estate investors specifically. I know there are a few things. Probably the big one that folks talk about and maybe don’t quite understand is this 3.8 percent tax…
Mike: …essentially to pay for Obamacare. It’s a Medicare tax. Like I said, most of the commentary or articles or things that I’ve read tend to be focused on how it’ll impact an individual homeowner. If it’s their primary residence it may not impact them. If their adjusted gross income is under a quarter million dollars, which obviously for most people in America it is…
But, there are a lot of real estate investors that make a lot more money than that, and they’re going to potentially be impacted by this tax. Can you tell us a little bit about the tax itself and maybe try to demystify it a little bit…
Mike: …and then a little bit about how potentially real estate investors can try to minimize the burden of that tax.
Keith: Yes. There’s that new 3.8 percent Medicare tax which is what we’re talking about. This is a Medicare surtax on unearned income. This is, in effect, your investment income. Your investment income is made up of interest, dividends, capital gains, annuities, rental income, your net rental income not your gross, royalties, and any sort of passive activity income.
Your net investment income is taxable to the extent that it exceeds certain threshholds. That threshhold is $200,000 if you’re single, or
$250,000 if you’re married filing joint.
Let’s say your adjusted gross income was $240,000 as a married couple. You had $20,000 worth of net investment income. $10,000 of that net investment income exceeds that $250,000 threshhold. So, you would multiply that $10,000 excess by the 3.8 percent Medicare tax. In that case you’d be taxed at around $380.
Keith: Some ways to kind of get around that, what’s not included is any sort of W-2 income, active trader business, self employment income, nor are distributions from an IRA subject to this income. However, if you’re normally below that $250,000 threshhold if you’re married filing joint, and you take a large IRA distribution, that could push investment income up above that threshhold when it wasn’t normally able to be taxed.
From an investment perspective ways to potentially get around this… Now, this next part is untrue, tried, not tried in court yet. Based on my belief of how the tax law reads, I think you can avoid this 3.8 percent Medicare tax on your buy and hold rental properties as a landlord if you can prove material participation.
What that is is if you can prove that you spent 500 hours or more in your rental real estate business then you’re materially participating. In order to do so you may need to aggregate your rental activities together, because normally you’d have to calculate that time requirement on a per house basis. You can make an aggregation election to aggregate all those together for the purposes of calculating that 500 hour requirement.
There are some pros and cons of making that aggregation election which are a little more complex. But, that is one way to do it for those who primarily focus on a rental real estate type business.
Mike: And that separates you between active and passive investor.
Mike: Is that what you’re trying to do there?
Keith: Really, what you’re doing is you’re saying I’m in the business of real estate. I don’t have a W-2 income really. I’m primarily focusing a lot of my time in this real estate business. So, with that requirement this is no longer an investment activity. This is now a business activity.
Mike: Okay. Can the time that you spend, does it have to be just on managing or… Any time you spent on your rental properties, can it also include the time you spend acquiring properties for those entities? Because for active investors…
Mike: Folks that buy from wholesalers and things like that maybe don’t spend a lot of time. Those people like me that advertise, generate leads, look at a lot of leads to get one buy, we spend a lot of time on the acquisition stage. Can that all be folded into…
Keith: Yes you can.
Mike: …that amount of time? Yeah?
Keith: You can.
Mike: That’s great.
Mike: Okay, okay. That’s great. That’s good to know. One thing we should say, we talked a little bit about this, is this show is meant for educational purposes. You should definitely talk to your accountant or tax planner instead of taking advice from Keith – and definitely from me. I don’t even have a CPA.
Keith: You should talk to a CPA about your individual situation. It doesn’t mean…
Mike: That’s right.
Keith: …you shouldn’t take advice from me…
Mike: Right, right.
Keith: …But, consult on a one on one basis just to…
Mike: That’s right.
Keith: …make sure that this applies to your individual situation.
Mike: That’s right, that’s right. Awesome. That’s great. Yeah, it’s kind of new territory for tax planners and for real estate investors. It doesn’t obviously just impact real estate, but it impacts… Given that our focus is real estate that’s mostly what we care about.
What other tax laws are coming up or have changed over the past year or so that you think are things that feel like they’re a little unclear as to how they’re impacting investors, or investors are maybe unclear?
Anything else you want to talk about?
Keith: Yeah, there’s one really big one. This is the new capitalization requirements. What capitalization is is whenever you buy, like, a rental property or building and you are going to hold that property for any period of time, you need to depreciate that property over a period of time. Just because you dropped $30,000 on doing a rehab for a new rental property you just bought doesn’t mean you get a $30,000 write off against your taxes. Instead, those costs of the rehab are capitalized and depreciated over 27 and a half years.
The IRS issued finalized regulations as of September 19, 2013. They’ve kind of had these ongoing proposed regulations for the last five years where they’ve been refining them a little bit each year. They finally issued the finalized regulations which help clarify what the new capitalization rules are and what we should be doing.
Previously, there was a lot of gray area. What this does is it means that any amounts paid for new buildings, improvements, all need to be capitalized. If you’re paying money for any sort of a restoration or betterment – betterment meaning you’re doing an expansion, an addition, increasing efficiency or quality – these are all things that need to be capitalized.
To kind of give some examples as to what you can write off, since they did clarify this as well, are any costs to maintain, improve, or a unit of property. Some examples would be light bulbs, air filters, touch up paint. These are all things for maintenance.
Now, they did issue these new de minimis rules, meaning that there were not previously any rules under which you could just straight write something off. So, if you were to put a microwave into your rental property, even if it only cost $125, you were supposed to capitalize and depreciate it over 5 years.
Under the new de minimis rule if you don’t have a written policy you can deduct any costs $200 or less. If you put a written policy in prior to this year or prior to the next tax year you can deduct up to $500 or less. Or, if you’re a little bit larger and you have audited financials you can
$5,000 or less.
Where this works in practice is maybe you own an apartment complex and you put in a $500 written policy. You could have a $450 dishwasher you’re putting into each of your units. Previously, you’d have to capitalize all those. As long as the delivery and installation costs are below $500 for that new dishwasher you could write off each of the dishwashers in the year that you installed them into your units. That’s a huge advantage right there.
Keith: Then, on the other point, they also clarified what the betterment rules are and when something’s a repair or an expense. Let’s say, for example, you have a roof on one of your rental properties. It was in decent condition beforehand. Then, you have a hail storm that hits your roof. That’s something real common here.
If that hail storm hits a roof with 15 year shingles, if you replace that same roof with 15 year shingles, even if it costs $5,000 it can be deemed a repair because it does not somehow increase its efficiency or it’s not a betterment any sort of way. However, if you were to replace that roof with 30 year shingles, which is better, then that would be a capitalized asset.
Mike: That’s interesting. Yeah. We have… Again, not to dig too much personally into this. I told you we went through an audit. This is really the main issues they had were what we were expensing for our rental properties.
You know, in our instances we buy a house, there are some times when we buy a house for $5,000, and we put $30,000 or $40,000 into it in repairs to get it rental ready. They’re just very distressed houses.
There was always a gray area between what is an actual improvement, improving it from its current state, or improving it from the state that it was previously in. Because there were always things like if you don’t add… If it already had central heat and AC, and the system doesn’t work, and I put that in, how do I treat that versus a house that didn’t have central heat and AC and I installed it for the first time? Those were always the gray area things that we dealt with in the past.
Mike: It sounds like they’ve maybe clarified that a little bit forward.
Keith: They have. Absolutely.
Mike: Okay, okay, awesome.
Keith: The general rule of thumb is any costs you do, you incur in terms of repairs or rehab prior to the house being available for rent when you first purchase, it should generally be capitalized and depreciated over 27 and a half years. However, carpet, appliances, and [Inaudible 0:22:51]
could be depreciated over a lesser time such as 5 or 15 years.
Mike: Then, one of the clarifying things there, too, is when the house essentially goes into service.
Mike: If you buy a house and you rehab it, most of the expenses are going to have to be capitalized. But, once it goes into service…
Mike: …expenses you have from that point forward are treated maybe differently.
Keith: A house is deemed to be placed in service once it’s made available for rent. Meaning somebody could move into the house, maybe start marketing it, that sort of thing.
Mike: Okay, okay. How do you advise people to document those dates?
And, does in service mean there’s a tenant living in it, or you’ve started marketing it?
Keith: It means that the house is available for somebody to move into it. It doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve started marketing it. But, having started marketing it is a big indication of the fact that you could move into it. Because some folks start marketing their properties prior to them being finished with the rehab.
Keith: That’s where it doesn’t quite cross over, but it’s a good indicator. Usually, the only difference from month to month on that available for rent is what month the depreciation starts. Having one month difference, there’s a little bit of a gray area. The IRS I wouldn’t think would beat you much up over taking one more month of additional depreciation if it was really on the gray line, but having that lease to back it up.
If you said that house was available for rent in March but the lease didn’t start until October I think that’s where there’s a bigger gap. But, if we’ve got only one or two months difference I don’t think anybody’s going to bust your chops over that.
Mike: Right, right. Awesome. Well, that’s good information. Talk a little bit about how folks, because we have an audience that’s all over the country, go about finding a good accountant and tax planner.
Keith: I think a big thing is, one, being able to sit down with folks. Hopefully, they offer some sort of free initial consultation – they’re not going to charge you just to do a meet and greet. I think if they’re personally a real estate investor that speaks a lot to their mindset.
Keith: Being a real estate investor, I have knowledge beyond simple tax preparation. They’re going to be able to get in and start talking about well this is what I did in my business, so these are the kind of rates I see out there. That’s a change from simply being in an employee mindset to being a business owner mindset.
Keith: Having that change I think within itself is a big one. Then, also, maybe just kind of quizzing them about what they do, what other clients they have that are doing real estate. Because there are specific laws regarding real estate that somebody who doesn’t do it on a regular basis is not going to be as familiar with and they’re not going to know how to take certain costs.
For example, your educational expenses from real estate investment seminars. There’s a publication out there, Publication 550 put out by the IRS, that says educational seminars, and investment seminars, and meetings, and clubs are nondeductible. That goes in the face of a lot of gurus who are talking about how their fees are deductible.
However, as a CPA that’s used to dealing with this, I know that maybe I can’t deduct it outright as an investment expense, however if I can somehow directly relate those costs to somebody starting a business, or relate it to the acquisition of a property, or maybe go to investment seminar and they teach you how to rent out your properties or buy properties, then I think you could find a way to deduct that as just not a matter of if it’s a matter of when and how.
Mike: Right, right, awesome. Do you serve clients all over the country?
Keith: I do.
Mike: You do.
Keith: have clients – I love meeting clients – but I have a good percentage of my clients that I’ve never met.
Mike: Okay, okay, awesome. We’ll definitely add links below the video for folks to get ahold of you if they’re interested in working with you directly.
Mike: I know, again, we don’t personally work together, but I know other folks that do. I’ve heard nothing but great things, so I think if folks are looking for a tax planner or accountant they should definitely get in touch with you. Again, we’ll add links below the video for that.
Keith: Thanks, man.
Mike: Awesome. Tell us a little bit about what’s coming up. It seems like just if you could draw a trend line of how much of a burden taxes are on the real estate investor, it seems like it’s going in a direction year after year that is not good for real estate investors. Can you talk a little bit about just the kind of trends and what you see happening over the next few years to come.
Keith: Sure. Initially, there were laws put in place to help out real estate investors and real estate ownership in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s. Some of these rules were not indexed for inflation. Most notably, you can deduct up to $25,000 worth of your rental real estate losses, but that phases out between $100,000 and $150,000 of adjusted gross income.
That was not indexed for inflation back in the 1970’s. Initially, a lot of people didn’t fall into that. Now, most of those that have some sort of success do. Over time as rental real estate and real estate in general has become more of a business focus and there are more investors getting involved, that means that Congress is going to look for more ways to tax it and get their cut of it as well.
Keith: Over time you’re seeing that we’ve got that 3.8 percent Medicare tax that’s kicking in that will affect a lot of investors, especially those that aren’t prepared. Then, there’s still a lot of gray area as to when you are or are not in business within real estate. The IRS has started to clarify some of those issues, but with such a gray area it’s a facts and circumstances test according to the courts, and you really have to look at individual clients.
Like I said, the tax rates are expected to go up. It’s starting to get heavier as Congress looks to tax that group more. In the past, historically, real estate investors have not had a lot of representation or lobbyists lobbying for their tax rights within Congress like some of the other industries have had.
Mike: What you just said there, how do you see that changing?
Clearly, there’s a lot of big hedge funds…
Mike: …and a lot more organized money, I’ll say, in real estate investing over the past few years. Those interests don’t necessarily represent the interests of the individual investor. Do you see there being more representation in the real estate investing industry?
Keith: I do. Actually, I’ve heard of at least two different groups that are trying to kind of, I don’t know that unionize is the right word, but have some sort of an association that people voluntarily pay dues to. I think some sort of an association like that could help bring us all together and go represent our interests in Washington. But, there’s nothing real large that I’m aware of yet that is currently doing so.
Mike: Yeah. There have been some great associations over the years that I’m aware of, but they seem to come and go. I don’t know if that’s because of amount of funding they have. I’m sure that has a big part of it. That’s interesting.
Keith: Well, truly, most investors tend to be independent and on their own anyways.
Keith: So it’s not like we’re licensed by some board like the American Institute of Public Accountants that are certified financial planners. It all flows through the same group of people and they they are forced to bind together. Investors, however, maybe through you, Mike, through Homevestors, you guys have some small groups out there, but there’s nothing holding you guys together nationwide across all different investor types.
Mike: Yeah, yeah, there’s no doubt. We’ll have to search out what’s kind of hot right now, because these are really important topics. They’re important for me and our industry. Definitely through some of my affiliations with either Homevestors or obviously FlipNerd we plan to be a significant voice in the investor community, not just educating people and helping connect individual investors or people that invest in real estate with folks like you, Keith, but also to kind of unify the industry and have somewhat of a voice.
Not that I’m necessarily looking to start my own association, because I’ve got enough irons in the fire. But…
Keith: You’ve got my vote.
Mike: …that’s definitely something that we would get behind and support. If anybody’s listening to this, definitely get in touch with us and let us know what some of the top groups out there right now to represent us are.
Awesome. Well, anything else happening that you want to share from a tax perspective, or any kind of parting comments? This is such an important issue, and I can tell folks for me as a real estate investor I didn’t really understand how important it was in the first couple of years like I do now being more of a veteran real estate investor to just tax planning.
We worked so hard for our business and to make money, obviously. With there being so many gray areas in the tax code, unless you’re working with somebody that knows what they’re doing you’re inevitably going to be giving up more of your profit to the tax man.
Keith: Yeah. The rules are just constantly changing. There is more pending legislation out there. Just speaking with somebody who’s knowledgeable of what the current state is, specifically around real estate investors… And, when you have a question or you have a big situation coming up that could lead to tax – if you’re looking to cash out from an IRA, or if you’re looking to sell a big property, or start a new business –
that’s when you should be talking with a CPA who can help guide you through what you should be doing so you don’t get bitten in the end.
Mike: Awesome, awesome. Well, Keith Borg with The Borg Firm, thanks for joining us today. Appreciate it.
Keith: Thank you.
Mike: Again, we’ll add links below the video for anybody that wants to contact you. Appreciate your time. It’s great information.
Taxes, you know this, for the average investor it’s not something fun or sexy. It’s probably more sexy for you. But, it’s such a critical issue that it be done right. It really plays a big role in your sustainability of being an investor to be able to continue to do this and not have to give away everything you make to taxes that are unclear.
Get ahold of Keith, and if you don’t, make sure you find a good accountant or tax planner to help support your business. Thanks again for joining us, Keith. We’ll see you around.
Keith: All right. Thank you.
Mike: Okay. Have a great day.
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