This is episode #336, and my guest today is Matt Garabedian. Matt is a Fresno California based real estate investor that is crushing it right now. Matt played baseball in college for one of the top college programs in the country, and uses analogies between baseball and real estate investing that create powerful lessons. I was excited to have this discussion, as I use baseball analogies often for real estate investing as well, though I did not ever play professional sports!
If you’re looking to take your business to the next level, or even get started as an investor, you’re going to love today’s show.
Please help me welcome Matt to the show.
Mike: This is the flipnerd.com, Expert Real Estate Investing show, the show for real estate investors whether you’re a veteran or brand-new. I’m your host, Mike Hambright, and each week I bring you a new expert guest that will share their knowledge and lessons with you.
If you’re excited about real estate investing, believe in personal responsibility, and taking control of your life and financial destiny, you’re in the right place. This is episode number 336 and my guest today is Matt Garabedian. Matt is a Fresno, California based real estate investor that is crushing it right now in his market.
Matt played baseball in college for one of the top college programs in the country and uses analogies between baseball and real estate investing that create powerful lessons for real estate investors. I was excited to have this discussion today as I use baseball analogies often for real estate investing as well although I never played professional sports or even in college.
So it’s going to be a great show and if you’re looking to take your business to the next level or even get started as a real estate investor, you’re really going to love today’s show. So check it out. Please help me welcome Matt to the show. Hey, Matt, welcome to the show.
Matt: Thanks, Mike. I appreciate being here.
Mike: Yeah. Good to have you. So I’m excited to talk about this topic today of basically making the analogy of sports, and I know your background is baseball, to real estate investing because there’s a ton of analogies that can be made and I think a lot of real estate investors are just kind of flying by the seat of their pants. So when you kind of give it that framework, I think it helps make a lot more sense.
Matt: Yeah, I agree. I couldn’t agree more actually. I’m a big believer in the mindset and like you said, I had some experience in baseball. I played my whole life and went to Long Beach State and I had never heard about psychology or mindset with really anything, especially with baseball. Some of the principles I’ve learned in just the sport has helped me transition out of the sport into business and to just as in life. It’s been really a huge factor for me.
Mike: I’ve actually known a few people that either played professional sports or even through the college level that really have a great business mind because they’ve applied that framework to it and I don’t think everybody does. But I think if you watch sports, if you grew up playing sports, then you start to see these connections, you’re like, “Oh, that makes a lot of sense.”
Matt: Definitely. Like these guys that you see on TV performing at these high levels, you have to imagine the amount of challenges and obstacles that they’ve had to overcome to get to where they’re at making millions of dollars and playing at a major league level. I heard some crazy, something to the extent of, you have better odds of being struck by lightning than playing in major league baseball. So that puts it in the context.
Mike: Yeah. I know we’re going to talk about this but I don’t want to steal your thunder, but one of the obvious things is overcoming a lot of failure because you can’t be a professional athlete in any sport and not have lost a lot but you just keep coming back to play again which is a lot of real estate investors get defeated. So I know we’re going to talk about that a little bit. I don’t want to steal your thunder on that. But hey, before we dive in this too far, tell us your background. I know you’re out of Fresno, California and doing really well. It sounds like you’re killing it. But tell us about your background and how you got to where you are today.
Matt: Sure. Yes. Born and raised in Fresno, California and I became a real estate broker in 2009 and the brokerage I have is called Royal Realty Property Management and Investments and I got that name from my grandfather who started Royal Realty in the ’60s. So traditionally, I got into the real estate side brokering buyers and sellers and I quickly learned that that really wasn’t something that was my niche. I got into apartments in terms of representing buyers for large apartment complexes and I learned about net operating income and cap rates and I really enjoyed that aspect, dealing with guys that are number driven as opposed to yes, we don’t like the, or we do or we don’t like the pink color of this house. That wasn’t really my focal point.
So in selling these apartment complexes, I’m thinking well, it’s great to make a commission but how do I get on the other side of the table. Unfortunately, I wasn’t given a head starter, a couple of million-dollar loan like Donald Trump. So I had to figure out, well, if I want to get to the other side of the table and the prices of properties here in the valley aren’t millions of dollars. So how do I get in place and get an opportunity to buy a property and become an investor? So of course in researching and trying to find what my opportunities would be, I came across wholesaling and that was in 2010 through the Fortune Builders. I think you guys have probably heard their names before.
Mike: Yeah. I think everybody has heard of them.
Matt: Yeah. I also would watch stuff online like Preston Ely was something, so a guy that I just got a kick out of because he had a cool personality and I made it so fun and exciting, then I’m like, “Wow, like this is awesome.”
Mike: Awesome. That’s great. So tell us a little about . . . you don’t have to give any specific numbers. I mean you told ahead of time that you’ve had just a banner year, 2016, but talk about kind of your exit strategies and your volume, just some idea of your volume.
Matt: Yeah, okay. We just finished 2016 obviously but just to put it in perspective, I do a mixture of wholesale and rehab. Primarily, I’m a wholesale guy at heart because I’ve been at both ends of the disposition if you will and I like wholesale. I just think it’s just a great opportunity to get a real opportunity to learn the business and I tell everybody getting into business, do not rehab, wholesale first, learn the business, then rehab is kind of what you graduate to. But yeah, I mean my goal for 2017 is, I’d like to do $2 million in 2017. So that’s my goal.
Mike: For profit perspective.
Matt: For profit perspective.
Mike: It sounds like you’re well on your way from what you told me from 2016. So that’s awesome. Well, let’s talk about again how you can compare sports. So let’s just continue to use baseball as an analogy to real estate investing and let’s break this down for people that are listening right now and just talk about some of the similarities and then we’ll start to dive in a little bit deeper.
Matt: Sure. So I think one of the greatest things you can think about is, let’s just talk about baseball. So if you’re failing seven out of ten times at the plate, you strike out, you ground out, whatever, fail seven times, you’re a 300 hitter and more than likely, you’re making millions of dollars and you’re at the top of the game. I never knew anything in life that you could fail seven out of ten times and someone would call you a winner. So it was really unique when you . . .
Mike: Until you’re like ten years old though. When you’re before that, it’s like, “Hey, everybody wins.”
Mike: But in the real life, real world sets in.
Matt: There is no participation trophies. No participation trophies in the business world. So that helped me in terms of understanding that it’s okay to fail. It’s okay to go through tough situations because if you have the right mindset, you’re going to learn from each of those at-bats and then next time you step up to the plate, you’re going to be better prepared to handle what’s coming at you. So in business and specifically in our business, in real estate, just through understanding my KPIs and understanding my business, I’m going to fail . . . if I talk to 100 people, I’m going to fail 98 times.
I’m going to get a deal after about 50 conversations, it’s how my numbers break out. So if I didn’t have that mindset, I mean I don’t know when those yeses are going to come. So they could come at number 98 or number 99, or number 99 and number 100. So I’ve gone through 98 rejections before I find those two yeses. If you don’t understand that, it could be a tough road.
Mike: Yeah. One other thing that’s interesting is so certainly by the time you get to college sports, even high school sports, they’re keeping stats. Like you have stats to look at. You have a score card to look at and see how . . . especially in baseball. You know you’re batting average, you know a bunch of basic stats and when I coach people even in my own business, we have a very detailed management dashboard. Like we know exactly what our number should be for a certain criteria, like how many leads are we converting into appointments, how many offer . . . how many leads are converting into offers and buys, some basic statistics.
But I think a lot of real estate investors don’t have that. They’re just going on deals and they’re not really looking to see how am I trending or how can I improve. Maybe share your thoughts on how if you don’t have those things, it’s obviously very difficult to improve on.
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I mean maybe share your thoughts on how if you don’t have those things, it’s obviously very difficult to improve on, right?
Matt: I couldn’t agree with you more. I think that’s part of the evolution of being a guy that is just learning about wholesaling and maybe doing a deal or two and then having some success and then making it a business after that. So once you’re able to get and make a business, then it’s almost critical that you understand your KPIs.
So I’ve got a set that I focus on and you’ve mentioned how many pieces of direct mail are we sending out, what’s the response rate, how many appointments do I get and how many closings. So we’re sending a huge amount of direct mail out every month and it’s expensive to do that. So if you’re not tracking and split testing and knowing where you’re spending your marketing dollars, it doesn’t help get you that clarity in your business and that’s huge.
Mike: I know we could have hours of conversation on this, but just at a high level for folks that are listening that are like, “Well, how do I even get started in tracking my stats?” You could say, hey, I’m going to send out a postcard and one of them is going to have black ink and one of them is going to have red ink and I’m going to test that with a different phone number which actually the technology is easier than ever to do that. Now I don’t know what your systems are but it’s pretty easy. But even at a high level, just like how much I spend on marketing and what my return is, maybe just kind of share some basic stats people can use to kind of implement into their business.
Matt: Are you asking me how I do it or what. . .
Mike: If yours is a little bit complicated, like you kind of evolved into that, like the folks who are listening right now and they’re not doing any tracking at all, where would you suggest that they at least get started?
Matt: Yeah. Well, I think you definitely have to have some type of CRM. If people were calling you and it’s going to your cell phone, that’s probably not going to be the ideal situation, right?
Mike: You’re not going to have the best conversion.
Matt: No. I mean when I started out, I was using a yellow pad and an internet connection I guess. I mean that’s how everyone kind of starts out. But then once you start investing marketing dollars and your response rate increases based on the type of material or marketing material you use, you’ve got to be able to have tracking in your business because it’s never a one call and close.
You’ve got to be able to nurture that lead, go through the system of from introduction to gauging their motivation, what their response is to an appointment, to a close, etc. So for my company, we use Podio, which I believe a lot of people use. It’s a custom Podio. So we’ve invested quite a bit of money to make it fit for us and where it’s a good working system that we have right now. I’ll use CallRail to . . .
Mike: We do too.
Matt: Yeah. So that in itself is just awesome.
Mike: It sounds like your marketing is working man. Your phones are blowing . . .
Matt: Yeah. Our phones are blowing up over here. I’m sorry.
Mike: No. You’re fine. You’re fine.
Matt: I use CallRail because it helps identify the specific piece we’re using. Sometimes, I’ll use it just to go directly to voicemail but I have phone numbers where we have a live answering service and so they’ll input the lead for us through Podio. So we have different systems in place. But I can pull up a report and say, “Okay, on December 1, I sent out 5000 pink postcards to a high equity absentee and I sent 5000 postcards to a notice of default and they were green.” I mean just as an example and so I’ll be able through CallRail to split test that and see okay, what’s working and what’s not.
Mike: The numbers are like, it depends on your account, but they’re like three bucks a month. So it’s really easier to kind of set up different phone numbers and treat them all the same way but at least be able to track things like do some split testing or track a letter versus a postcard or anything else, right?
Matt: Exactly. It’s awesome in that sense because our phones are just going crazy right now.
Mike: Your direct mail just . . . your letter just hit man.
Matt: It is hitting. They went out on the seventh so you’re probably right. Let me see if I can just . . .
Mike: That’s fine. That’s fine. I’ll keep talking here while you’re messing with that.
Mike: So I think the important thing is like a high level, for those of you listening that are like already maybe getting overwhelmed here is track how much you spend on a certain type of media. So whether it’s direct mail, and even if it’s direct mail, you might separate postcards versus letters or a lead source like probate versus some sort of high equity absentee owners, something like that. It’s just to split it down and say, “How much did I spend on that campaign at most?” Then how many leads did I get from it, how many we track? We track things like how many leads, how many appointments did we set.
We actually track how many appointments we attended because sometimes, there is cancellations and stuff like that. Did we make an offer? Did we get a contract? Then ultimately, did we close on it? So really five or six sets of criteria and it’s fairly easy to . . . honestly, for years and years, we did that in an Excel spreadsheet. So I would think there is much better ways today. We use Podio as well. But I think just those basic stats are your score board.
Matt: They’re huge. I mean and that allows you to reverse engineer things. You can pinpoint exactly okay, in February, we sent out X amount and got this response and in March, we did this. So if you have a six-month set of data, data doesn’t lie, right? So numbers speak for themselves. So if you could see some type of correlation or trend in the numbers, then you can make those . . . we talked about this. The small tweaks and adjustments make huge results.
You don’t need to reinvent the wheel here. It’s do I know my data? Can I look at a sample size of data and say, “Okay, this is working and I can see why it’s trending,” or “this isn’t working and here’s why.”
Matt: So let’s take this out and focus on what’s working. So if you don’t have those numbers, then essentially you’re throwing it to chance.
Mike: Yeah. For most of us in this business, our biggest expense is advertising. So you need to monitor the performance of your advertising. I mean one thing, just at a high level so we can move on here, is you might find that you get the same number of leads, let’s say for your direct mail and your pay-per-click advertising, okay? But unless you’re looking at this data, if you’re just merging everything together and saying, “Hey, I got 50 leads from this and 50 leads from that,” and then from there, you merge everything together, you might not realize that you close your pay-per-click leads at double the rate that you do your direct mail leads.
So if you’re tracking those things up front, then you might say, “Hey, I’m going to do less direct mail and more pay-per-click because I’m closing at twice the rate for one reason or another,” but that allows you to make decisions on your advertising, right?
Matt: A hundred percent. I mean I think that is, it speaks for itself. So you definitely need to know where your marketing dollars are going and where your best return is and if you can identify that, then that’s a huge, huge win.
Mike: So let’s talk about understanding why you’re doing this as a real estate investor without using like a cliché of, a lot of people say you understand your which or why. That’s an important thing, but let’s make the analogy there with people that are in college that are playing baseball like you did.
I don’t know if you had major league aspirations or whatever, but just talk about what probably a lot of people do and then if you get to the major leagues, then of course, your aspirations are to make it to a certain team or to make more money or win the girls or whatever it might be. But just talk about how important that is and let’s kind of relate it back to sports.
Matt: Well, to be honest, I never had dreams of becoming a major league baseball player. For me, just being able to go to college and play baseball there was like it for me. I was actually a somewhat recruited walk on. So when I went to school, they were number two in the country and it was a gamble for me to even go because I didn’t have a scholarship. So I walked on essentially and made the team and that was such a big win for me only because it gave me the opportunity to do something that I loved which is play baseball, compete at a high level, and then get a tremendous amount of life skills.
I can’t stress that enough. Like I feel so blessed to be able to be in that position because it taught me so much. It taught me to get up at 5:00 in the morning and hit the weights and then get my schoolwork done and get out to practice. Then we do that every single day. So it was so regimen, the power of consistency and focusing on let’s focus on our actions and not the results.
So I know I kind of diverged from your question. But the why, it’s huge because everyone has to understand why they’re venturing out, we’re entrepreneurial people. This is an entrepreneurial business. We’re not guaranteed a paycheck. So if someone says, “Well, I want to be rich.” Well, that’s great but that’s not going to get you out of bed every day when you’re six months into it and you’re still waiting to get your first deal. So those things kind of quickly dissolve and reality hits. I don’t know. I mean you’ve talked to I think you said I’m number 330 something on the . . .
Mike: Three hundred and thirty-six, yeah. Absolutely.
Matt: Yeah. You’ve interviewed a lot of successful guys and you’ve been successful yourself. The guys that I’ve been around, I’m in a high-level mastermind group and I network with a lot of very successful entrepreneurial business owners in real estate. A lot of guys came from long odds and facing bankruptcy or having a foreclosure, getting told no a million times. Failure, failure, failure, failure. So what was it about them? What kind of cloth were they cut from to overcome those? That’s the big question. You know what I mean? You’re going to fail. I fail every day. We all fail. I said I fail 98 out of 100 times.
So you’ve got to dig down and ask yourself, “Am I prepared and willing to go through this to get to the “end of the rainbow” where the gold is, I guess. You’ve got to have a why and for me, it was I want to provide that quality-of-life, an opportunity for my family and for my children and for me, that challenge of leaving Fresno and going to Long Beach State and walking on when no one even knew who I was, that challenge to me got me up every day to compete and that’s what I take from that analogy from the sports world to business. I compete every day with myself and with the industry and finding those gold nuggets I guess.
Mike: Right. Even like sports, you have to work hard to stay on top or even get ahead.
Mike: I think like you said, some people would say, “Well, I want to be rich.” It’s like, well, why don’t you just become self-sufficient first and then you set another goal. I’m going to improve my swing or whatever it might be incrementally. That’s why a lot of people fail I think in real estate is first off, they don’t have any idea what they’re doing or they don’t think you need to spend money on advertising.
They think the easy part is just finding deals, like that’s just kind of a given. It’s like no, that’s the hardest part. But the other thing is they don’t really realize that you have to make incremental improvements. So just assume like well, I’m either going to make it right away or I’m not. It’s like no, that’s not really how it works.
Matt: I think you could probably agree to this too, Mike. You’ve got to invest in yourself. I invested thousands of hours at 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 in the morning just gobbling up content that I could find, watching guys that were doing big things and trying to emulate their success. The knowledge that’s out there, picking up books and reading them, it’s huge.
So when you start spending time, money, and effort into yourself and knowledging up and leveling up, then it starts to become where you can start to trend and become successful because you’re gaining that knowledge, something just very elementary as how to put a wholesale deal together to understanding marketing concepts, to understanding the rigors and the terminology of just real estate, period.
So there’s a lot of moving parts to our business but to break it down, I look at it now, it’s like how can I win the day? For me, if I could get up and get a workout in and start eating right at the beginning of the day, that’s a win for me. That’s something that I’m trying to really implement earlier here in 2017 because if I’m off on that part of my life, then I’m not happy. So can I win the day early and get my exercise in and get a decent breakfast and then start focusing on, okay, how can I win the day on my business.
Mike: Yeah. That’s great. This is, to use another analogy of baseball, it’s really a game of base hits. You just take small steps. People are excited about home runs and everybody loves a home run or a grand slam but it’s really base hits that win a lot more games, right?
Matt: I’ll take singles and doubles all day. So yes, everyone loves the home run absolutely. Those don’t come along as often but again, if you’re focused on consistency, consistency breeds success. They say don’t get shiny object syndrome. I’m not trying to be all things to all people. The moment that you have purpose and clarity in your business, you’ll be able to start hitting consistent singles, then consistent doubles, and then your home runs will be mixed in.
Mike: Really, I’ve always told people in this business, I’ve literally used this analogy, I’m not making this up for the show but I’ve always said, hey, it’s a game of base hits and when you get those triples and home runs, that’s where your big pay days come and make your profit for the year.
So a lot of times, your base hits keep you in the game, they help you offset your costs, they kind of keep you . . . because you’re not going to hit a home run on every deal you do ever. So you should get comfortable doing those things that are covering your marketing, covering your overhead costs, and then once you get to a certain point, it all starts to become profit, right?
Matt: Sure, absolutely. I mean that’s the name of the game essentially because when we’re wholesaling, we have to leave some profit for the rehabber. So of course, they’re taking most of the risks and they’re the ones that are going to be putting the money out and going through the four months or whatever it takes to get their profit. So [inaudible 00:26:42] single.
Mike: So let’s talk about the importance of learning from your failures because in sports, you may do something but you tend to revisit that. You’re like, “Well, if I had to do that again, here’s what I would do differently,” or “Here is how I’m going to do it differently next time.” But I think for a lot of real estate investors, they’re just like, “Oh, I lost another one. I lost another one.” They don’t reflect back and say, “How could I have gotten that one?” Or, “What could I have done differently?” So just maybe kind of make that connection on the importance of learning from your failures.
Matt: Yeah. There is huge lessons in learning from your failures and the ability to be able to be aware of that and be present in the moment is huge. I think you’ve got to kind of retrain your brain to take those negatives and correlate a positive out of it. So being present means focusing again. I keep repeating this but I’m focusing on my actions and not results.
So essentially if an action that I took failed, then if I’m present in my actions and I can look at okay, here’s my core process, what did I do wrong here, then there’s huge learning moments in those failures. So again, going back to your mindset, you have to expect those failures to come and if you can retrain your mind to say, “What can I do differently this time,” you’re going to slowly but surely eliminate repeated mistakes, learn from those mistakes, and then get better.
I make mistakes all the time and one of the ways that I learned to deal with mistakes or adversity, right? We always have adversity. The title company calls, your deal is falling apart, the seller calls, “I’m having a change of heart.” I mean your buyer calls, “I can’t get funding in time.” There is a million things that happen in this business that can ruin a deal.
So going back to the baseball side, imagine you’re in a very tense situation. There’s two outs on the bottom of the ninth, the winning runs on second or third, how do you deal with a guy that’s throwing 95 miles an hour at your hands, and not getting that situation so far out of context that you can’t be in the moment.
So there’s a lot of different things that we talked about and one of them is a focal point. So like I have a focal point in my office. This kind of sounds a little strange but it could be anything. So I pick out a focal point and the meaning of a focal point is, so if I get that tough call or I get that bad news, most people’s instincts are to like freak out and “This is the worst day of my life. I can’t do this,” and really kind of lose the focus.
So if I have those moments, I pick out that focal point and what that focal point means to me is like Matt, you’ve earned the opportunity to be here. You’ve put a lot of “hay in the barn” staying up at 2:00, 3:00 in the morning for a lot of years, investing in your education, reading books, going through a bunch of deals.
So that focal point tells me, you’ve earned the right to understand the process, you’ve been through the process. So I put a ton of hay in the barn and I know over the course of what I’ve done, it’s going to be okay. If today’s result isn’t perfect, I’m going to trust the process and by just trusting the process, I know at the end of the day it’s going to be okay because there’s another win that’s going to become available for us if we continue on that process.
So for me it’s worked. I try to eliminate the, what they call stinking thinking, because we have our biggest nay-sayer on our shoulder all the time. So if we can kind of putter out thoughts into a focal point and why don’t I wake up every morning and do this or whatever your case is. It kind of sets you back into the moment.
Mike: Yeah. I think and I mean, you probably would agree with this. I think it gets easier as you start to scale your business too because stuff falls through. I mean those things happen. You get more experiences, you get more chances to fail and learn from them. So I think one of the challenges that a lot of real estate investors have, especially if they’re new or trying to get started is that one deal, even if you’re doing a deal a year which isn’t bad for a lot of new people for sure, I mean it depends on what your goals are. But if you lose that one deal, it hurts a lot more than if you lost one of five that month, right?
Matt: I remember strangling my deal so when I first started that one deal because you’re right, it was going to pay for three or four, five months of living. So you’ve got like a chokehold on it and you’re never going to close that thing because you’ve got so much pressure on it that if something inevitably happens.
But my grandfather always says you got to be turning over rocks. It’s like, “How many rocks are you turning over today?” I remember him telling me that and I’m like, “What do you mean?” But you’re turning over rocks that you’re prospecting. You continue to prospect, prospect, prospect, well, pretty soon, he says, “You’re going to turn over one of those rocks and you’re going to find a piece of gold.”
So it kind of made a lot of sense to me. You’ve got to talk to 50 people a day when you start in this business, minimum. The phone is your friend. I mean that’s what you have and if you’re not prepared to pick up the phone every day and talk to people about what you do, then it’s going to be a long road. So if you’re not on the phone, you’re not prospecting. If you’re not prospecting, you don’t have leads. If you don’t have leads, you don’t have a business.
Mike: It sounds like I wrote that and you just read it. We speak the same language my friend. That’s awesome. Well, Matt, I definitely appreciate you sharing time with us today.
Matt: Thank you. It’s been a pleasure. I really love your show. I’ve learned a lot of great lessons in some of the late mornings I’m staying up and watching the show. I really love it.
Mike: Thanks. I appreciate that. So how do folks get a hold of you? If they want to learn more, where should they go?
Matt: Sure. Just a simple email address. There is Matt, that’s with two t’s, so [email protected] [email protected] So just email me you if you have questions or want to reach out. I’m on Instagram and Facebook and all that good stuff too. So pretty easy to find.
Mike: Okay. We’ll have some links down below the video here for how to find you on social media as well.
Matt: Yeah. That would be great.
Mike: Awesome. Well, thanks again. Everybody that’s listening in today, there are some great lessons here. I do a lot of shows obviously and I’m not taking anything away from any of the other shows I’ve done, but this was an exciting topic for me because it’s so fundamental to this business. I hope you got something out of it. We definitely appreciate you joining us. We’re going to keep cranking shows out this year, so keep on listening. Matt, thanks again for being with us today my friend.
Matt: You got it, Mike. You guys have a great day and I appreciate it again.
Mike: Absolutely. Everybody, have a great day. Thanks.
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