For many real estate investors, multi-family real estate investing is a big black box. We were blessed to share many of the countries biggest names in multi-family investing this year, but Charles Dobens willingness to open up and share the good, bad and ugly has allowed him to win our 2014 Best FlipNerd Multi-Family Investing Show. Watch it here!
[Recording: Welcome to the FlipNerd.com podcast. This is your host Mike Hambright, and on the show I will introduce you to VIPs in the real estate investing industry as well as other interesting entrepreneurs whose stories and experiences can help you take your business to the next level.
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So, without further ado, let’s get started.]
Hey, this is Mike Hambright . Welcome back for another FlipNerd VIP show. Today I have with me Charles Dobens who’s an apartment investor. He teaches others to invest in multifamily properties and has some great lessons and some insights to share with us.
Before we get started with Charles, let’s take a moment to recognize our featured sponsors.
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Mike Hambright: Hey, Charles, welcome to the show.
Charles Dobens: Hey, thanks Mike. Thanks for having me.
Mike: Sure. Sure. Glad you’re on. So, you are a multifamily real estate investor that is taking over the world. Is that right?
Charles: I wouldn’t say that, but one thing you didn’t mention is – my major focus is – you know, I’m an attorney, I’m a practicing attorney.
Charles: My entire practice focuses strictly on working with multifamily investors. That’s all we do. So, if anyone is looking to – you know, we do our own consulting, mentoring program for new investors, but we also represent them in a legal fashion, as well, if that’s what they need. So . . .
Mike: Is that across the country?
Charles: Yes. Obviously, the consulting is across the country. If for providing legal services, we might need local representation. It all depends upon the local bar rules. So, that’s what we have to watch out for. So, we’re very careful about that.
But, from a mentoring standpoint, we really take the new investor on board and make sure that they’re protected every step of the way.
Mike: Okay. Okay. So, when we start to kind of take it from the top. I know you had, like me, always had an interest in real estate investing but just never got around to it until a certain point. So, tell us kind of how you – you know, some of your initial interests, and then how you took it from just interest to actually doing it.
Charles: Well, the town that I grew up in, all the rich people were the real estate investors. So, I thought, “Man. I really like that. I want to do that someday.” Then, when I went to college, I worked as a doorman at a luxury apartment building, and that was where I really got to see what owning and A-class property is like. It’s a very, very nice lifestyle. I thought, “Man, that’s what I want to do.”
But what I ended up doing for the next 20 years was getting into the family business, which was insurance, which, believe me, no . . . If you have a kid that comes to you and says, “Hey, dad, I want to be in the insurance business someday,” there is something wrong with that child, something very wrong with that child.
Charles: So, I do that for 20 years. I was successful at it. I owned my own business. I had about 35 employees working for me, and . . .
Mike: Is that an agency?
Charles: No. It was a benefits administration company. We essentially were an insurance company, but we didn’t take on any risk. So, I would show up every day and I thought to myself, “I absolutely hate coming here. I hate this job. I hate what I’m doing. I can’t live the rest of my life this way.” That’s when I finally went to my wife and said, “I can’t do this anymore.”
She said, “What do you want to do?”
I said, “I’ve always wanted to own apartments, and that’s what I want to do.”
She says, “Okay. Let’s do it.” So, we sold the business, and I started buying properties, and we quickly owned – you know, purchased over probably over $20 million of multifamily property around the country.
Over time, what I realized was – you know, I was a lawyer – when I own the business, I was practicing – but I realized that that when I was buying the properties, I had great attorneys. They drafted fantastic contracts. They protected me very well. They knew how to close title, but they couldn’t tell you if the property was a good deal or not.
Mike: Right. Right.
Charles: And they couldn’t tell you how to negotiate around due diligence items, and what have you. So, I realized that there was a huge need for representation among the new investors out there, people looking to get into this business, but having somebody look over their shoulder that’s been through it many times and still represented them as their zealous advocates through the process, because, as I always say, if you do your first deal wrong, you’ll never do another deal.
Charles: If you do your first deal right, you’re off to the races.
Mike: Yes. Yes. Even in single-family. There’s a lot of folks that heat warnings or take advice or work with the right people on their first house, and they just get wiped out, and they don’t do that again.
Charles: Exactly. And there’s so many pitfalls, little tiny things that you wouldn’t even think about happening.
Mike: So, a lot of multifamily folks form partnerships and alliances and find ways to do deals together, and there’s obviously, usually, large pies to go around, so that works out. Was that part of what you saw was people need representation and it’s a way for me to get access to more deals or partnerships or things like that? Was that part of it?
Charles: No. Not at all. As a matter fact, just the opposite. I saw that as being a huge conflict. I mean, if I was there to represent these people and make sure that they were doing it correctly and part of my compensation was derived by getting a percentage of the deal when it was done, then how could you look at my advice is being objective? Because I know, hey, if I say “No,” and this deal doesn’t get done, I don’t get paid. Essentially, it’s working on a contingency basis, as an attorney, and that always causes some conflicts.
Charles: Yes. So I don’t partner with my clients. I just make sure that they’re protected.
Mike: So, talk a little bit . . . Have you done any . . . I’m sure you’ve done some level, but you didn’t transition from single-family and go into multifamily. You went straight into multifamily.
Charles: Yes. I did, and the reason being is that – I mean, having owned my own business, I understand businesses, and I understand how business is run, and I know how to read financial statements and what have you, and I looked at the single-family said as being very emotional and very subjective, and they couldn’t get my hands around it. Believe me, my wife and I tried – when we were first getting started in this business – we looked at single-family homes and thought that’s how we’re going to go through the process, but then we were introduced to some of the multifamily concepts, it just made sense to us.
Since that time, when I teach in my seminars, I tell you that you’re not in the real estate business when you own a multifamily. You are in the multifamily real estate investing business, and it’s different. I mean, real estate in my business is secondary. It’s secondary to the business that is renting out units and making sure you have happy customers. That’s the real business that I’m in.
Mike: It’s interesting that you say that, because I don’t say this a lot to people. Some people have heard me say it. Even though everybody knows me as a real estate investing guy in one form or another, for me, this is very much a merchant business. I’m sourcing something at a low price and selling at a higher price.
Mike: My background in retail – I did that with other products where I was around that in other products that was real estate, and so, even though real estate is kind of the niche I mean and it’s the one that I enjoy, the fact that it’s real estate – you’re right – is very much secondary to the fact that it’s a business of . . .
Mike: . . . sourcing things and selling them at a higher price and adding value, and . . .
Mike: . . . all that stuff. Yes.
Charles: And the way I teach it in the class, and I use examples, and once I’m through teaching, people totally get it, and that is that – you know, what business am I really in? I’m in the contract business. Everything I do starts and ends with the contract, for making the offer, with the letter of intent or getting the purchase and sale agreement executed, all the way to leasing an apartment. Everything has to do with the value of those contracts, and that’s where the money is made.
Mike: Yes. So, along the lines of investing yourself, you decided a couple of things. The first thing, obviously, was to provide legal services to people, and then, somewhere along the line, you decided to help start educating and teaching people.
Mike: Tell us about that a little bit.
Charles: Well, we had done some consulting with a particular guru who shall remain nameless, and he – you know, we saw that there was a huge need, and we just didn’t feel good – this is my wife and I – we just didn’t feel good about the way that it was being taught and the way it was being trained, and this is a phenomenal business. It really is. I honestly can tell you that I have never been in a better business than owning apartments, but it’s not right for everybody, and not everybody can do it, and not everybody can get into it, but, with that particular person, if your credit card cleared, you are in the program.
So, we really sit down and wanted to make sure that we were providing the right services to the right people, and that’s really how we built our practice, I’ve built my practice, in working with people that can get deals done.
So, it’s not hard. It’s really not a hard business. You just really have to remain committed to it and realize that it is a business; it’s not a hobby. If this is a hobby, this is a very expensive hobby.
Charles: Yes. So, that’s how we got into it, and it’s just grown since then. It’s really taken off.
Mike: So, you have the Multifamily Investing Academy, which is kind of – that’s kind of your vehicle for teaching and educating people, right?
Charles: Exactly. Yes.
Mike: So, tell us a little bit about that. When did that start, and how did that kind of come about?
Charles: Well, I started that with another attorney, several years ago, and then we’ve since – I’ve since taken it off and really have just use that as my educational vehicle. We go out and we do seminars throughout the country. The one seminar that we do – this is with a friend of mine, Duncan Wierman – is we do a Multifamily Shark Tank, and what Multifamily Shark Tank started out as was really just a two day event where I would teach how to buy apartments, and, at the end of every event, Duncan and I would stay in the front of the room and say, “How can we make this better for you?” and, what we ended up doing – they said – you know, the first advice was, “You’ve got to make it longer. You guys are just giving us way too much. It’s like a firehose, and you’ve got to give us more time.” So, we said, “Okay, fine, we’ll make it a three-day event.”
Then somebody made a very interesting observation, and this, I thought, was a great idea, and that is that if we could show you how to put a deal together, from start to finish, and get a deal done, that would be great, and, at the time, I had just seen a couple of episodes of Shark Tank, and so I thought, “Geez, what they’re really asking for – if we made like a Multifamily Shark Tank,” and I went out and I started contacting some investors who had deals to be done, and we showed – you know, the first one started off very slowly, but this last Multifamily Shark Tank that we did, we actually did a deal. I mean, we have a deal under contract right now that we put together at that event.
The owner was at the event, and we asked him to leave the room while we analyzed his numbers and came up with an offer, and then he came back into the room and we did a little horsetrading, and he accepted our offer, and, right now, we’re going to the purchase and sales stage, and we just to the webinar with all of the Shark Tank attendees with her money person, so they can learn, every step of the way, how to make a deal happen. So, that is the type of training that we do.
Mike: That’s cool. So, the seller that was there, at that point, he was just a prospective seller; he came to an event trying to get a deal done. Is that right?
Charles: Well, not exactly.
Mike: All right.
Charles: You’re making it sound like The Bachelor, where everything just happens by happenstance. We kind of plan a little bit.
Mike: All right.
Charles: Turns out that this particular . . .
Mike: Are you saying that The Bachelor is not orchestrated? That just happens, right?
Charles: No. It is [inaudible 12:47].
Charles: Right, and The Voice, too. The Voice, also, and American Idol. Yes.
No. What we ended up doing was – it was a client of mine, and this is a guy who’s been a client of mine for years, and [when] I started working with him, he had no properties or no apartment buildings. He now has over 1400 apartment units around the country. So, I remember when I first started working with him, he purchased this 36 unit. I helped them buy this property, and then he came to me when I was promoting my Baltimore Shark Tank Event, and he said, “Hey, listen, I’ve got this property I want to sell. You think there’s any way that you could make it available at the Shark Tank and see if anybody wants to buy it?” and I started thinking, “That would be great if I could bring both sides together and you could see how everything comes together. That would be fantastic.”
So, he came to the event – 36 units. You know, he gave us all the information. We ripped apart the deal. We put it back together, and we made our offer, and we did little bit of horsetrading and we subsequently had to do more, but it worked out beautifully, and it’s really nice deal.
So, at the next Shark Tank Event I’m going to show people what they do with a purchase and sale agreement, and we could sell that deal at the Anaheim event.
Mike: So, when you buy multifamily . . . You know, I focus on single-family, obviously. My focus is – we always by at pretty deep discounts. Our model is to buy distressed properties at deep discounts. I know when you get more into single-family it’s like a lot of other businesses. You could buy. You could be the guy that’s looking for discounts to add value. You could be somebody who’s just buying cash flow, that has a well-run machine. You have a specific focus or a specific focus that you teach or that you practice yourself?
Charles: Well, yes, and that’s two different answers there. My practice is one where I actually tell people that – you know, I have a bumper sticker on my car that says “Life is too short to own C-class property.” So, here I am – I’ve got the education arm; I’ve got my law practice; I’ve got four kids. I can’t be taking on C-class property, which is a very highly intensive management property, but that’s me. It doesn’t mean that somebody else can do it and be very successful with it.
Mike: My rentals are C-class, by the way.
Charles: Yes. I mean, we own . . .
Mike: I don’t manage them myself. I don’t manage them myself. I’m fortunate to have an awesome manager that just couldn’t do it better. So, [that’s what I was going to say], an important part of it, but . . .
Charles: Exactly. Right. I mean, I’ve owned and owned A-class, B-class, C-class, and, if you give me on a bad day, sometimes D-class property. So, I’ve owned it all myself. So, I know what it takes to manage these things, and we’re just doing a deal right now that is just an absolute sweetheart value add, you know, intensive management product that we’re buying over 200 units, and that one is – that’s going to require some or management as well, but it’s such a great deal.
Charles: So, as I say, the type of property that I look for is the type of property that I forget I even own. That’s the best type that I own.
Now, take that to other people, different types of value plays, yes, but I’m very, very realistic, and this is the type of thing I see other people teaching this and they don’t quite seem to understand. They tell you that you can make value plays out of changing the utilities over, or they tell you value plays are buying a C-class in a B marketplace, and you’ve never even been to that marketplace, so how do you know that it’s a C-market or B-market. So, I’m very realistic and sobering when I talk to investors about those types of value add alternatives.
So, every property is different. Every property is a little, mini business, and you have to understand how that business makes money, or how it can make more money.
Mike: When you teach people, do you teach them “Here’s what I do, and this is what I recommend,” or teach more of “These are some different flavors you can choose, and you have to choose what works best for you”?
Charles: Yes. The most effective teaching that I do is when you’re sitting in the – you know, you’ve got 75 people in a room and everybody’s kind of watching and taking notes. When I start telling stories about my screw ups, everybody comes to life, and everybody wants to hear those types of stories of all the things that I’ve done wrong, so they don’t make the same mistakes. So, I tell you, I teach with a lot of stories in my business. That’s what I do.
Mike: So, the folks that you teach, what’s your intention to get out of that? Is it partnerships? Is it clients on the attorney side of your business? What do you get out of that?
Charles: It’s really consulting clients, and the thing is, my consulting clients, they become friends long-term, because not everybody can get into the program, and I’m very selective as to who I take, but I only want to work with people that I like and then I know can do this business.
So, when you come to my seminars, I introduce you to my mentorship program and how I take you under my weight, and I’ve got to tell you, it’s a very unique mentorship program. Because of the fact that I’m an attorney and I own my own law firm, I can do things that other people can’t, like for instance, we actually do these securities work in our firm. We have an attorney on staff who does the securities work for our mentorship students.
And then something else, which is amazing, is our Earnest Money Deposit Program, and where, typically, you’re out there making offers and you’re going to put a deal under contract that’s $3 million, I mean, the broker wants 1% as earnest money. So, if you can’t stroke a check for $30,000, we can. So, that’s a program that we offer through our mentorship program as well. So, there’s a whole host of things that we do differently than anyone else does, but the most important thing is that we’re coming at it – you know, you can make as many jokes as you want about lawyers, but we really are held to a different standard, and I’ve got to make sure that I protect you as best I possibly can.
Mike: Yes. I won’t make any lawyer jokes today.
Charles: Today. Thanks.
Mike: I if you, but I won’t make them.
Charles: Oh, we all do. Yes.
Mike: Yes. So, what’s a typical person that attends your event and wants to train? Is it professionals looking for an investment vehicle? Is it somebody that’s just completely broke and sees a way to become rich overnight? I mean, there’s a lot of guru-type folks that prey on those people, obviously, . . .
Mike: . . . but just talk a little . . . Those folks are never going to get into multifamily investing.
Charles: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
Mike: So, talk a little bit about what the typical . . . I folks who are professionals like you who are doctors, and they teach other doctors how to use real estate as a vehicle. So, talk a little bit about kind of who your target audiences, I guess.
Charles: Okay. It’s kind of interesting, because I hope I don’t step on your toes here, Mike, but the thing is that . . . The first example that you gave, of professionals, those become clients of mine from the law firm. I actually have people who come to me and say, “Hey. I’ve got a ton of money, and I really want to buy apartments. Can you get me into one?” Then I take them on on a retainer basis, but those are clients of my firm.
As far as when they – the people who come to my seminars, those are the ones that, if you think this is a get rich quick business, I can tell you right now, it is not, and please do not come to one of my events thinking that I’m going to . . . I always stop people and I say, “Listen. If you want to own an apartment building in the next 90 days, for no money down, I can do it for you. I can get you into a deal. It will be the last deal you ever do. It will probably eat you alive, but that is not what we’re here for. You do not want to do that type of business.”
If you’re looking to get into multifamily, typically, the people who come to my events are the single-family investors, guys who have been doing it for years and they just realize that the treadmill that they’re on, and they were want to get some type of a regular cash flow coming in, and now they’re looking at doing multifamily. Those are the best [customers], because they’ve been doing it for years; they understand this business; they know how to price things out; they know that this is not a get-rich-quick scheme. It is a business, and those I find to be the best type of clients in my office.
Mike: Okay. And I you, in terms of your practice, you buy properties – you’re kind of agnostic to geographic location. You buy them all over the country. Is that right?
Charles: Yes, it is. I do, because I look to see where the opportunities come in. I own my own property management company. So, I have employees all over the country. The thing is that there’s been one guy out there touting – you know, you’ve got to buy in emerging markets, and everybody that shows up at my events are all saying, “Well, what are the emerging markets?” and I can’t stand that. That concept drives me crazy.
Just think about – if you think back, I started off this conversation my saying, “Who were the guys . . . ” you know, “What got me into this business?” All the rich guys in my town were the guys doing real estate. They weren’t doing real estate in Fort Worth, Texas. They were doing real estate in Nashua, New Hampshire. You can do real estate in your own backyard and be a very big success at it, but I always ask the question, “This is a business that you are going to own for the next 5 to 10 years. Where do you see yourself in five years?” and that’s really where you should be focusing your searches.
Mike: Even though you buy all over the country, you kind of tell people that they should stick close to home? Is that what you’re saying or . . .
Charles: Yes, because, the thing is, I’ve been doing this for years. I’ve got a track record. I got experience. I’ve got some gravitas behind me. I can walk into a different market and say, “Hey, I own the management company, and I own $20 million of property, and I’m ready to buy this one.”
The problems come up with the new investors who think that they’re going to get into their first deal in Oklahoma City, a 200-unit deal that they’ve never done one before. That’s just not going to fly. I mean, if you don’t have – if you haven’t built your team, and you don’t have the key principals in place, you’re not going to be able to pull that trigger on that deal. So, why waste your time?
And that’s kind of what we teach in our seminars is “Let’s do this the right way and let’s do it, and let’s do it the realistic way.”
Mike: Right. Right. And with your property management company, you’re able to do some amount of things centrally, and then you have some boots on the ground locally, like active management? Is that what you’re doing?
Charles: Yes. All the financials, all the computer systems, are right here in my office in Boston, and my employees, I always buy property that are large enough that I can have staff on-site that work for me, and they report to me, and I manage everything from this and. Let me tell you something. I’ve done it all different ways. I’ve done in the third-party management companies. I’ve done it – you know, self-management. Nobody loves your baby as much as you do, . . .
Charles: . . . and that’s why I found, over time, that the easiest way to do this is to get out there and do it yourself.
Mike: Yes. There’s no doubt about it. Even though we have a property manager for all of our rental portfolio . . . Now, this guy is my – he’s a mentor of mine, and he happened stone nearly 2000 properties himself, and he doesn’t really do property management for a lot of other people, but he just said, “I’ll plug mine in.”
Mike: “Plug ours in.”
Mike: In fact, other than him and his accountant, nobody even knows they’re not his properties. His whole management team treats them like kids.
Mike: So, it works out for us, but, I will tell you, even though it’s never been more passive – I say, passive for us – it’s not passive.
Mike: We had a fire two weeks ago. That fortunately doesn’t happen very often, but we’ve got tax issues to deal with. There’s just a lot of stuff that is still a burden. It is not passive business.
Charles: No. It isn’t. That one guru sends out the picture of him with his feet up on an ottoman, with a remote control, saying, “No tenants, toilets or trash. Just travel, Tahiti and tennis.” Are you kidding me? Seriously? You’re really . . . I mean, I cannot stress enough that this is a business. If you do not keep your eyes on the pennies of this business, you will be out of business in 90 days, guaranteed. You’ve got to just watch what I’m telling you.
I was in Ireland for 10 days. Nobody on my staff knew it, and, with today’s technology, I can be anywhere in the world and running my properties.
Charles: And it’s really a very . . . In today’s marketplace, wow, what a lifestyle property ownership can provide for you.
Mike: Well, can you share – I mean, not that you’re going to share your golden nuggets, but how do you find deals? I mean, are you buying foreclosures? Are you buying stuff from hedge funds? Or you buying stuff directly from sellers, typically? You have an army of agents out looking at different markets? What can you share?
Charles: Sure. Well, the first day in my seminars I teach all the different places to find deals, and, of course, when these people come out of these big boot camp’s, they’re all jumping on LoopNet, thinking they’re going to find deals on LoopNet, . . .
Charles: . . . and I can tell you, LoopNet is where deals go to die. You are not going to find a deal on LoopNet, but you’re still going to use LoopNet, and I’ll show you how to use LoopNet. There are so many other sources on the Internet for finding deals, but there’s never been a better way to find those deals than by building relationships with brokers and with other types – you know, property managers and those types of things. You’ve got to spend the time and build up the relationships, and that’s where we got our deals – is through relationship-building.
Everything they came to us has been the result of a relationship that we have fostered. So, I’ll show you how to find the people that have a deals, but you’ve got spend the time and really build up the relationships to get those deals on your desk, because, just think about it, those brokers, they’re out there all day long, and they know where all the deals are, and they know what’s coming up and what’s not coming up, and, if you sit down there and tell them, “Hey, listen, I got to close the deal in the next 60 days, and it’s got to look like this, and if you know anybody out there that has this type of deal, please, please, let me know,” and they’ll be like, “Oh, yes. I spoke to that owner two months ago, and he was thinking about selling. I’ll call him up.” So, he calls the owner and says, “Hey, I’ve got a guy who’s interested in your property. We [own to] sell,” and then he puts the two of you together.
The best was come about by relationships and not by sitting on LoopNet or Marcus & Millichap and things like that.
Mike: Right. So, I know, from the single family side, there’s a very low conversion rate of people who have an interest or they think they want to do this, to actually going out and doing it, and I’m sure it’s no different, maybe even a smaller percentage, on the multifamily side, because, for a new person, it’s a little bit tougher to get started in terms of size of the deal, if you will, but talk a little bit about – for folks that are really interested – how to clear some of the common objections to getting started.
Charles: Oh. Okay.
Mike: The common hurdles, I guess.
Charles: Well, that’s something that I teach is that this business that I am in is a hoop jumping business, and what I mean by that is that no matter what stage your in, somebody is always throwing hoops – they’re forcing you to jump through them. They all want to make sure that you can make it through the next hurdle.
Just think about it – like, when you contact a broker for the first time, he says, “Well, send me your resume,” and, you know, you would not believe how many new investors throw their hands and say, “I don’t have a resume. I can never do this business,” and I say, “No. No. No. Let’s work on that. Let’s put your resume together. We’ll combine it with some of my stuff and will make you look really good on paper.” Solved that hoop.
Then they come back with – you know, the old “Proof of Funds” letter. “Oh, I can never show that. I’m out of this business.”
Like, “No. No. We’ll just jump through that hoop and make everything happen.”
And that’s what I do. When I first got started, I realized that these guys were just trying to – you know, I called brokers “human speed bumps,” “human rain delays.” They’re just trying to get in your way to prevent you – you know, to prove their worth and to prevent you from getting to your goal, and I just wasn’t going to let these guys do it.
So, you really just have to understand that the roadblocks are things you just have to overcome. It’s just simple. You just figure out the solution and move on.
Mike: Yes. And it’s like everything in life. If you’re willing to work a little bit harder, hustle a little bit harder, then you’re going to be more successful. Right?
Charles: Yes. Yes. Exactly.
Mike: Awesome. Well, tell us . . . I know you have the Multifamily Investing Academy and the Shark Take for folks, and I know you’re going around the country throughout the year and have a few different events going on. Tell us a little bit how folks can find out more and what they can expect to happen there.
Charles: Okay. Well, the easiest way to track me down is go to the MultifamilyInvestingAcademy.com website, and there’s a tab there for events, and then all of my events that I have coming up for the whole year are right there. They include free webinars. They include free mentorship, one-on-one sessions, and they also include all of my events. I’ve got Multifamily Shark Take coming up in different places throughout the country. I’ve got a Due Diligence Seminar, a two-day event that is very intensive. If you’re thinking about buying property or right on the cusp of buying, you do not want to miss that program, and you can find my whole schedule right there on that website.
Mike: Okay. Okay. So that was MultifamilyInvestingAcademy.com.
Mike: We’ll add a link to that below the video here, so folks can – that’s a mouthful – so they can find that.
Mike: You need an acronym. Of course, you could never get that website, that URL.
Charles: Well, yes, that’s right. Well, it was MFIA, and then everybody kept calling it Mafia, and I said, “No. No. That’s not right. So, we’ll go with the long one.”
Mike: That doesn’t sound good.
Charles: No. It doesn’t.
Mike: Awesome. Awesome. Well, hey, we appreciate your insights, and anybody who’s interested in learning more about the Shark Tank, the Multifamily Investing Academy or Charles himself, check out some of the links below and look them up and look up some of the events and check it out.
Mike: Thank you, Charles. I appreciate your time today.
Charles: Thanks, Mike. I appreciate it.
Mike: Good having you want.
Charles: It’s been a lot of fun.
Mike: Okay. Take care.
Mike: See you later.
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